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Switch to Forum Live View re:The Holy Spirit and Miracles Today
8 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2010 - 10:48AM #31
Livelysword
Posts: 15

May 9, 2009 -- 10:52PM, newway87 wrote:


I find this conversation fascinating.  I'm a pianist, and I started playing for church where I grew up by the time I was 11.  I've been at it ever since.  I might also  mention to you that I worshipped in college at a non-instrumental congregation (and loved it), but grew up with parents that would turn and walk out of a church that didn't have a piano simply because they'd seen non-instrumentalists walk out of our assembly because we DID have one.


My position on this is that either way can be an enhancement, or a distraction.  As a musician, I know that a really bad pianist can negatively affect worship, as can a congregation or song leader that can't carry a tune.  Some people like newer music, some don't want it if it's not "Amazing Grace."  I've been in many of these situations, and I just remind myself that making a joyful noise is the most important part.  (I realize that the Hebrew for "noise" varies quite a bit, but I prefer to take it at face value.)


My only question for those that think the pianist should leave the piano at home, and that sung words of praise is the only proper way, what about deaf people?  I have for years known many deaf Christians that can't utter a single sound--but I have been moved to tears to watch someone sign a familiar hymn beautifully.  To me, this is a wonderful enhancement to worship.  Bottom line for me is, bring your best, and accept what others bring when there's no clear statement in scripture. 




 


 


Lively:  the real question to playing instruments of music in the NT worship of God is, is it authorized by God, or are we adding to the worship that which God has not commanded us under the NT law of Christ?  The fact is, there is nothing in the NT which teaches or commands one to play an instrument of music... and we can not simply take what was once done in the OT and add it to the NT because it had been done under that covenant...  we are not under that covenant any more... it was done away with and taken out of the way and nailed to the cross to bring in the NT covenant of Christ.  The NT teaches these things as part of the worship


 


 


1 praying


2 singing


3 preaching


4 giving


5 communion


 


these five are commanded and should be a part of every 1st day of the week assembly and I say first day of the week assembly because that is when the giving and communion is to be done, not upon another day, where as the first three praying, singing, and preaching can be done at any time, or any assembly on any day of the week, where as the giving and the commuion are only for the first day of the week assembly...


 


 


It is important that we follow all that the NT commands of us and not add to it anything which is not commanded... we are not to add unto the word or diminish ought from it...  Let us not be of the Number whom Jesus told...


 


Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


 


do we not want to build our house upon the rock?  Either we do the things the Lord commands us, and not add ought unto his word, or we take it upon ourselves to add unto his word and do works he has not commanded, and in the end hear him say, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you...  let us be as those who were wise and built their house upon the rock...

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2010 - 11:22AM #32
Campbellite
Posts: 2,068

Lively, I have a question about this.


I am aware that the CoC teaches that we are to practice only what the NT alone authorizes. One of our early (19th Century) leaders described the NT as the "Constitution of the Church".


My question is, is the NT pattern prescriptive or descriptive? That is, does it prescribe how worship must be done, or does it describe how is can be done? Just how much flexibility are we allowed?


If it is truly presciptive, without any room for flexibility, then we are all in trouble. The NT says nothing about electric lights, yet I dare say we all use them. It says nothing about indoor plumbing, but every CoC I have ever visited had indoor bathrooms. At the time the NT was being written, the only scriptures available were the scrolls of the Hebrew texts, which, while translated into Greek, were not available in English. Does the NT say anything about using translated texts? (Yes, I am aware of the Day of Pentecost, but those were spoken words, not written) The NT we know was not compiled officially until AD 325.


There's nothing about pews, or using individual communon cups (as opposed to a common cup) or tiny bits of bread instead of a single loaf, all of which I have seen in CoC congregations.  Heck, there's nothing in the NT about church buildings either. Or hymnals. So just how strict are we to be about all this?


-------------------------


I say all of the above, not as a criticism of the CoC, which fellowship I love, and have many CoC family members, but as a way of stimulating some conversation.

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2010 - 12:42PM #33
Livelysword
Posts: 15

Jan 26, 2010 -- 11:22AM, Campbellite wrote:


Lively, I have a question about this.


I am aware that the CoC teaches that we are to practice only what the NT alone authorizes. One of our early (19th Century) leaders described the NT as the "Constitution of the Church".


My question is, is the NT pattern prescriptive or descriptive? That is, does it prescribe how worship must be done, or does it describe how is can be done? Just how much flexibility are we allowed?


If it is truly presciptive, without any room for flexibility, then we are all in trouble. The NT says nothing about electric lights, yet I dare say we all use them. It says nothing about indoor plumbing, but every CoC I have ever visited had indoor bathrooms. At the time the NT was being written, the only scriptures available were the scrolls of the Hebrew texts, which, while translated into Greek, were not available in English. Does the NT say anything about using translated texts? (Yes, I am aware of the Day of Pentecost, but those were spoken words, not written) The NT we know was not compiled officially until AD 325.


There's nothing about pews, or using individual communon cups (as opposed to a common cup) or tiny bits of bread instead of a single loaf, all of which I have seen in CoC congregations.  Heck, there's nothing in the NT about church buildings either. Or hymnals. So just how strict are we to be about all this?


-------------------------


I say all of the above, not as a criticism of the CoC, which fellowship I love, and have many CoC family members, but as a way of stimulating some conversation.




 


 


Lively:  Hey there again Campbellite...  I think part of the problem you are having has to do with what the scripture authorizes and what it does not...  I will post a few links... let you read through some of them if you so like, and hopefully they will help you understand better scriptual authority...


 


www.allanturner.com/authority.html


 


Pay special attention to part 3 in this next one...


III. Generic And Specific Authority


www.bible.ca/d-authority-acts-15-silence...


 


I state that because many of the things you are discussing are of generic form... such as lights, pews, plumbing ect... there is not specific authorization, but generic...


 


Like for lights... in acts 20 they were gathered in the upper room, and had lights...


And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.


where did the authority for these lights come from?


 


in James 2 we find... 


Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:


where did this guy get a footstool?  By what authority?


 


Here is where the authority for such... in the command to gather...


 


this last one discusses some of the expedients used and authority for them..


www.bibleanswer.com/buildngs.htm

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2010 - 3:33PM #34
Campbellite
Posts: 2,068

Jan 26, 2010 -- 12:42PM, Livelysword wrote:


Jan 26, 2010 -- 11:22AM, Campbellite wrote:


I say all of the above, not as a criticism of the CoC, which fellowship I love, and have many CoC family members, but as a way of stimulating some conversation.




Lively:  Hey there again Campbellite...  I think part of the problem you are having has to do with what the scripture authorizes and what it does not... 




Thank you for the links, Lively.


I know I have said this before on this CoC board, but it has been a while and maybe you are unaware. I am not a member of the churches of Christ. I am, in fact, a Disciple of Christ, y'all theological cousins, as it were. When the churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ parted way around the turn of the previous century, my own family was deeply divided. Many of my kinfolk are CoC. I am as familiar with the CoC as anyone who is not CoC could expect to be.


(Tragically, our literal family feud lasted for 100 years! It was not until a family reunion in July 2000 that the DOC family and the CoC family members could talk with one another about our faith in a civil fashion. All of the first and second generation of that feud had to die off first. Literally.)


I visit here occasionally, but I remain (I hope) a respectful guest.

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2010 - 10:15PM #35
Livelysword
Posts: 15

Jan 28, 2010 -- 3:33PM, Campbellite wrote:


Jan 26, 2010 -- 12:42PM, Livelysword wrote:


Jan 26, 2010 -- 11:22AM, Campbellite wrote:


I say all of the above, not as a criticism of the CoC, which fellowship I love, and have many CoC family members, but as a way of stimulating some conversation.




Lively:  Hey there again Campbellite...  I think part of the problem you are having has to do with what the scripture authorizes and what it does not... 




Thank you for the links, Lively.


I know I have said this before on this CoC board, but it has been a while and maybe you are unaware. I am not a member of the churches of Christ. I am, in fact, a Disciple of Christ, y'all theological cousins, as it were. When the churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ parted way around the turn of the previous century, my own family was deeply divided. Many of my kinfolk are CoC. I am as familiar with the CoC as anyone who is not CoC could expect to be.


(Tragically, our literal family feud lasted for 100 years! It was not until a family reunion in July 2000 that the DOC family and the CoC family members could talk with one another about our faith in a civil fashion. All of the first and second generation of that feud had to die off first. Literally.)


I visit here occasionally, but I remain (I hope) a respectful guest.




 


 


Lively:  Ah DOC...  doesn't that stand for Department of Corrections?  LOL  J/K....  I understand there was a split in the church, and I have indeed heard of the Disciples of Christ church or group which was part of the church of Christ in times past...  we can always discuss such matters... I am open for discussing the differences and where I believe the word of God stands on these things...


 


God bless..


 


Lively

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8 years ago  ::  Jan 30, 2010 - 4:37PM #36
Campbellite
Posts: 2,068

Jan 28, 2010 -- 10:15PM, Livelysword wrote:


Lively:  Ah DOC...  doesn't that stand for Department of Corrections?  LOL  J/K....  I understand there was a split in the church, and I have indeed heard of the Disciples of Christ church or group which was part of the church of Christ in times past...  we can always discuss such matters... I am open for discussing the differences and where I believe the word of God stands on these things...


God bless..


Lively




You will note that I carefully worded my comment so as to avoid implying that either group broke away from the other. We "parted ways". There never was a formal vote by anyone which broke our fellowship. It was more of a "drift". The Disciples Historical Society preserves much of our common heritage for all streams of the Campbell - Stone Movement.

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