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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2009 - 3:19PM #1
Jazel
Posts: 1,182

Don't know if this is the place to post this, but just thought I'd get some takes on my issue.


I was born and raised Catholic, 12 years of Catholic School, but haven't considered myself Catholic since College. (I'm 40 now) Anymore, though, I find I can't get away from it (The Godfather line comes to mind). Occasionally, I will stare at my wife and in a horrified, hushed voice I will say "Ohmygod, I think I'm...Catholic." She just tends to roll her eyes in that Lutheran way of her.


So, Catholics, what do you think I need to subscribe to to consider myself Catholic? Is it at all possible to still be the Socially Liberal person I've grown to be? (ie fight for Gay rights, women's rights, etc.) It appears that Catholicism is in my DNA or something...


 -Jim

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Marx
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2009 - 4:20PM #2
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Being Catholic does not mean not being liberal.  I am Catholic and quite liberal.


I get called "Cafeteria Catholic" because I don't kow tow to the old farts in Rome.  My guess is that that's what you would be called too... Cafeteria Catholic.


I guess it's supposed to be an insult.  But, to me, it means free thinking and NOT willing to take Rome's b.s. without voicing my opinion.  This church needs to become more accountable to those who are expected to support it.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2009 - 5:28AM #3
Jazel
Posts: 1,182

Mar 9, 2009 -- 4:20PM, Tmarie64 wrote:


Being Catholic does not mean not being liberal.  I am Catholic and quite liberal.


I get called "Cafeteria Catholic" because I don't kow tow to the old farts in Rome.  My guess is that that's what you would be called too... Cafeteria Catholic.


I guess it's supposed to be an insult.  But, to me, it means free thinking and NOT willing to take Rome's b.s. without voicing my opinion.  This church needs to become more accountable to those who are expected to support it.




Well, thank you.  This is pretty much the way I'm coming around to seeing it.  I am who God made me, and part of who he made me is Catholic, while the other part is highly suspect of Rome and its machinations.


Cafeteria Catholic it is, then!  I'd be proud to be labelled such:)


-Jim

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Marx
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2009 - 10:06PM #4
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,681

As a Catholic who subscribes to the theology and doctrine taught by the 'old farts in Rome' I'm rather perplexed as to why someone would want to remain a Catholic if the hierarchy are a bunch of hypocrites who teach bunk.  If I felt that way then I would walk out of the Church without even thinking twice about it.  Beam me up, Scotty.

"Our Lord needs from us neither great deeds nor profound thoughts, neither intelligencenor talents. He cherishes simplicity."-- St. Theresa of Lisieux
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2009 - 10:27PM #5
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Well, if it were any of your business I'd explain.  But since you can't be civil to the "unwashed" who don't choose to be brainwashed into blindly following those who aid and abet rapists, I really don't care if you understand or not.


 

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 11, 2009 - 7:53PM #6
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Mar 10, 2009 -- 10:06PM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:


As a Catholic who subscribes to the theology and doctrine taught by the 'old farts in Rome' I'm rather perplexed as to why someone would want to remain a Catholic if the hierarchy are a bunch of hypocrites who teach bunk.  If I felt that way then I would walk out of the Church without even thinking twice about it.  Beam me up, Scotty.




Actually I like decent dialogue. I'm 69, a very liberal Catholic--so educated at a very liberal Catholic college in the late fifties. We are the Vatican II real crowd. John XXIII guided us. He was a remarkable man and pope who actually served the Church and people as a papal diplomat. As Yves Congar, teologian remarked John XXIII loved people more than power.


Not all Catholics think as you do. John Paul II made it his business to undo much of Vatican II. He was born in and only decently educated in a dictatorial Poland. Benedict increasingly seems to live in a world of his own. Benedict is an academic who was truly frightened by the student revolts in Europe in 1968. All of this is history, documented, if you care to pursue it.


Hans Kung and Thomas Reese, both beset by Rome in similar ways, are Catholic priests in good standing, but probably not your cup of tea. I highly respect both of them.


John Paul II used a loyalty to his thinking as a litmus test in appointing American bishops, so today we have an American episcopate afraid of its own shadow. Wojtyla set out to squelch American-based theology--especially Jesuitical. He has almost succeded. Where he has not succeded in among those who know better.


Not all Catholics choose to live in some rarified world. Some of us were educated even at the college level in Catholicism never to do that.


 

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 7:49AM #7
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

Jane, I've found many priests are also "off track" to some of the doctrines.  The priest who married my husband and I, the priest in my parish when I was confirmed, and my husband's uncle are three that come to mind when I think of this.


All three subscribed to the same general school of thought...  One example was...  "We teach responsible parenting.  If that means not having children, well, then..."  


The problem for the Church today is that the average high school education is better than, or at least as good as, some college educations were 40 years ago.  Esp. in America we are taught to question.  Not to follow blindly and accept what someone says JUST because that someone is a "leader" or "authority figure".  The pedophile scandals did far more damage to the Church in the U.S. than the "bosses" want to believe.


Add to that the fact that the youngest person in charge is no less than 60...  The leader is, what?, a thousand?  Come on!!!  He is a WORLD WAR II relic... I'd love to talk to him about the war, he's a treasure trove of information.  BUT, as a leader of the 21st century church, well.... he's just not the one.


Until the church recognizes that there ARE problems and the women are VITAL to the survival of it, and that there must be accountability for the wrongdoings of its leaders at all levels... it is in trouble, more and more people will drift away and become Cafeteria, or Easter, Catholics.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 11:22AM #8
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,681

To my knowledge, theologians who promote artificial birth control and women priests are not Catholics in good standing by definition.  To be in full communion one has to submit to church teaching especially on practices deemed to be intrinsically evil.  I have no problem with those who 'think for themselves' but being 'Catholic' should carry a stigma with it beyond just being baptised and going through the motions of being Catholic.  In my own formation I grappled with various issues; yet through humble submission and intellectual assent I came to see things the way of the Magesterium.  I respect those who follow the dictates of their conscience and come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church isn't the place for them.  When one takes part in the sacramental life of the Church, one proclaims to the rest of world to believe in what She teaches and behave accordingly (visible signs of an invisible reality) which is why such a big deal is being made of public figures supporting practices nonconforming to Church teaching and receiving Holy Communion.  And the newly elected Archbishop of New York, Timothy Dolan is slightly under sixty I might add.  Grey hairs and leadership go together well in my opinion.  This doesn't only pertain to Catholic Church hierarchy,  but CEOs, presidents, anchormen, and so on.  They don't just start out at the top in their mid-twenties or thirdies; they work through the ranks the same as anyone else.

"Our Lord needs from us neither great deeds nor profound thoughts, neither intelligencenor talents. He cherishes simplicity."-- St. Theresa of Lisieux
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 11:49AM #9
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277

To your knowledge... So what?  Their refusal to CONDEMN CONDEMN CONDEMN is one thing that is standing between the church and extinction.


If I lived in a gold enhanced ivory tower I'd believe it all without any questions too.  HOWEVER, I SEE the children in Africa dying of starvation, dying of AIDS.  I don't believe a person raped should be forced to accept ANY consequences of it.  I believe ALL rapists should be prosecuted, especially the ones who hide behind robes or badges or a teacher's desk.


I see hypocrisy, I call it hypocrisy.  You don't.  Fine.


But I will never justify to YOU or anyone, thomas, MY choices, feelings, or opinions.

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 4:19PM #10
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Mar 12, 2009 -- 7:49AM, Tmarie64 wrote:


Jane, I've found many priests are also "off track" to some of the doctrines.  The priest who married my husband and I, the priest in my parish when I was confirmed, and my husband's uncle are three that come to mind when I think of this.


All three subscribed to the same general school of thought...  One example was...  "We teach responsible parenting.  If that means not having children, well, then..."  


The problem for the Church today is that the average high school education is better than, or at least as good as, some college educations were 40 years ago.  Esp. in America we are taught to question.  Not to follow blindly and accept what someone says JUST because that someone is a "leader" or "authority figure".  The pedophile scandals did far more damage to the Church in the U.S. than the "bosses" want to believe.


Add to that the fact that the youngest person in charge is no less than 60...  The leader is, what?, a thousand?  Come on!!!  He is a WORLD WAR II relic... I'd love to talk to him about the war, he's a treasure trove of information.  BUT, as a leader of the 21st century church, well.... he's just not the one.


Until the church recognizes that there ARE problems and the women are VITAL to the survival of it, and that there must be accountability for the wrongdoings of its leaders at all levels... it is in trouble, more and more people will drift away and become Cafeteria, or Easter, Catholics.




It seems to me that most priests over 40 in this country leave the birth control issue up to the couple. There is widespread disagreement on Humanae Vitae and sleeping dogs are allowed to sleep. How many large Catholic families do we see today? And the parents aren't all doing NFP.


Also I wonder just where some of these doctrinaire Catholics are getting their ideas. They are the ones who are not mainstream.


Something that occurs to me from time to time, and especially with some of what Benedict has been up to, is that some part of the Church wants to return to a time when Catholics were somewhat isolated--not all but some or many. We are too American for that today. I knew I was American long before I knew which church we went to. (When I was a pre-schooler all my uncles were fighting WWII in the Pacific..)


Benedict's letter to the Catholic bishops of the world, published today (and presented by prajna on Ave Maria) shows just how shocked Benedict was/is by the public back-lash he recentrly took from those bishops. Not all the roads lead to Rome anymore.


 


 

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