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9 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2009 - 12:57AM #21
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,970

Mar 20, 2009 -- 10:32PM, jane2 wrote:

Mar 20, 2009 -- 9:21AM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:

Mar 20, 2009 -- 5:22AM, whirlinggal wrote:



Tell me why it is that converts are always "better Catholics" than those of us who have been Catholics all our lives?

It is a very mysterious phenomenon.


I don't contend that they are.  I do know cradle Catholics who admit that they tend to take for granted the privelage they've been granted, while converts haven't had the plethora of grace accesible to us (confession, the Eucharist, etc.) so we're more enlivened sometimes than our cradle counterparts.  Didn't mean to come off arrogant if that was how I came across.

God bless


Did you ever consider that not all Catholics are called to the same, rather rigid, view of Church that now enthralls you?

That some of us were extremely well educated in the Faith in a different era? That some of us were educated far beyond what can be presented in formation classes? One of the brightest priests in my archdiocese says one cannot do the theology without the philosophy. Not much Catholic philosophy is taught in formation classes. We did twice as much philosophy as theology in Catholic college.

For some years I taught 4 classes in RCIA: I was recruited to teach them. I also taught adult bible study.

Your view of Catholicism may be fine for you, but it seems constricted to me. How much Church history have your read and studied? How many accounts of Vatican II have you read and studied? How much do you actually know about Eugenio Pacelli, Angelo Roncalli, J.B Montini,  Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger? What have you read by Ratzinger?

Pacelli (Pius XII) and Roncalli (John XXIII) sought to take the Church forward. Wojtyla (John Paul II) decided to take the Church backwards: he had never lived in freedom and was supicious of it. Benedict has dug himself some very big holes.

(I like to drive my youngest sister crazy by referring to popes by their given fun. She always tells me to cut it out..)

My grandparents and parents did not take Catholicism for granted when they educated their children in private Catholic schools and colleges: they paid the tuition and the fees!! I did not go to a parochial school supported by the parish.

I wish you well, but the Catholic Church is very old and much broader in view thaqn many think.



Thanks for your insight.  I actually read all the Vatican II documents prior to joining.  The abortion issue was somewhat of a hindrance to me joining until I actually studied up on it and familiarized myself with the various procedures.

The last Papal Encyclical I studied was Mystici Corporis Christi (June 29, 1943) by Pope Pius XII (formerly Cardinal Pacelli).  Before that I read Deus Caritatis Es by Pope Bendedict XVI (formerly Cardinal Ratzinger).  I also read many Ratzinger declarations when he was Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. 

My view of Catholicism isn't based on my own whimsicry; rather it is based on the thorough doctrinal and dogmatic teachings of the church as I understand them.  Shouldn't adherence to authentic Catholic teaching count for something in the realm of being Catholic?  You couldn't, for instance, get away with this in the Islamic religion.  If being Catholic has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic doctrine, then what does it (outside of baptism) entail in your estimation?

Yes, I'm aware that many catechists, clergy, theologians, etc. teach outside the confines of orthodox Catholic doctrine.  My own mother was a catechist in her late teens, and she never even learned how to say a rosary.

And you are quite right when you state that philosophy is a necessary component to grasping theology, which is why I've studied extensively in this department as well (early church fathers, Chesterton, a little Aristotle, Neitzche, Marcus Aurelius, Descartes, etc)  Philosophy in and of itself needn't be bereft of orthodox Catholicism.

For your information, sending one's children to a private Catholic institution and being serious about authentic Catholic formation have nothing to do with one another.  Solid home instruction and living out the faith as role models for your children are key.  Couples I've known have trouble with their children losing their faith when going off to college (even at so-called Catholic institutions like BC, Notre Dame, Georgetown, etc).  Catholic education is supposed to be supplemental, not take the place of Catholic upbringing in the private home.

Best wishes to you as well :-)


Holiness consists simply in doing God's will, and being just what God wants us to be.. -- St. Therese of Lisieux. For applicable reads: Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint Alphonsus Liguori ... or ... Story of a Soul
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9 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2009 - 7:19AM #22
Posts: 2,025

Hi Thomas & all,

My problem with free thinking is that it sets one above the collective study of many.

Once you start tossing out values, where do you stop?  Can you toss morality in general, and make your own decisions?  We had a real hot discussion a while back over porn.  Some actually attempted to justify porn.  I guess those exploited by the porn industry, and the damage done to those who view this "art" are not important.

Thanks for your input.


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9 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2009 - 7:33AM #23
Posts: 2,025

Mar 12, 2009 -- 4:42PM, Jazel wrote:

Interesting conversation - thanks for all the replies.

To answer one question put forth by Thomas: Why would I want to be Catholic if I thought the Church Fathers were hypocrites?  Maybe because I Love the Church.  Disagreeing with their actions (rather strongly in a lot of cases) doesn't necessarily mean I'm calling them hypocrites.

Anyway, I plan on speaking to a Priest this weekend.  Meanwhile, I've been perusing a website with forums full of folks like our friend Thomas here - verrrrrry Traditional Catholics.  

 If the priest I speak to this weekend tells me I cannot be Catholic for any of these reasons, well, then so be it.  It would break my heart, because deep down I do Love the Church, be it.  At least I will have finally made my peace with the Church, and I can spend the rest of my life knowing that I'll have time to burn in Purgatory after death.  At least I know the Church will be praying for me while I'm there.


Hi Jim,

Good you are deciding to speak to a priest.  It is better to get authentic info, than rely on the internet.

"1. My wife should convert (something I wouldn't even suggest in jest - I value my life)  She has no problem attending some services with me, and I'll still go with her on occasion to her Church - we see it as strengthening our individual faiths and heck, meeting more Christians to befriend."

There is no reason you wife must convert. 

"2. I Definitely need to have my vasectomy reversed (I know, TMI, sorry) - Sorry, once under the knife "down there" was enough for me, and my wife and I have made a very serious decision to not have children of our own.  We fully intend to be foster parents and are open to adoption."

I really don't think this would be a condition.  You probably couldn't get permission to have one,  but since it is done, I doubt reversal would be required.

"3.  I will need to condemn the Homosexual couples I know and love, including my Brother.  I can't do that, and in my prayers I am convinced that God knows why."

This is totally not true.  There are many "guidelines", but we are only obligated to refrain from illicit sexual activity.  We are certainly called to love all, and not judge them.

God bless you in your journey.


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9 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2009 - 8:12AM #24
Posts: 5,277

Mysty... If a woman could DIE, and knows it, if she got pregnant... Why is it "immoral" for her to take measures to prevent it?  Why would that be considered... "free thinking" or "tossing out morality"?

MY problem with the Church is that they have NO bend.  None.   "A woman gets pregnant she must deliver"... Doesn't matter that that "woman"  is a NINE year old rape victim.   How is it moral to force a 9 year old to do something that many 20 year olds have a hard time with?

Oh, and on what planet is it "moral" to HIDE rapists?   Transfer them?  Promote them?  Allow them to retire witn NO disgrace?  To never so much as apologize to the people they raped?

Perhaps when the leaders of the church start being moral...  Until they do, it's a case of "Do as I say, Not as I do"... At 45, I'm a teensy bit too old for THAT battle tactic to work.  

James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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9 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2009 - 9:41AM #25
Posts: 2,025

Hi Marie,

I did not cite any issue, except porn.  The situation in Brazil is horrible, and I sincerely doubt that the excommunication will be upheld.  It is also not up to me to decide when it is right to sacrifice one life for another.  I once sat in on a meeting of the ethics committee of a Catholic hospital.  There are doctors and religious present, and each case is evaluated individually.  There are no blanket resolutions, and certainly no media present.

Porn on the other hand can never be justified.  There is no good to be gotten from this evil exploitation, smut  and greed.

My point is that once an individual decides that they know better than a group decision by credentialed authority, where does it go?


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9 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2009 - 10:01AM #26
Posts: 2

I was in the seminary for 6 years. I left because they did not train the priest for exactly what Christ wanted people to understand about religion. It has nothing to do about rules and regulations. It has nothing to do about people beating their chest. It has nothing to do about how many times that you pray or what sacrifices that you make.

It is about love. Read the good samaritan parable. That is everything that God wanted to say. Love thy neighbor. The apostles wanted to wear a uniform. Jesus said that they should be know not by what they wear but what they do for others.

The Church - all Churches what ever they are called - have it wrong. For them it is about power and control. They do not understand that it is about love and dealing with others.

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