ClarinetLachlan wrote:

If I'm reading the tone of this discussion, it's not about jealousy - it's about legitimate theological issues. As much respect as we (non-catholics) might have for the BVM, I think it is legitimate that we might struggle with placing the Marian doctrines on the same level as the Trinity. Against serious heresy related to the Person of Christ, the Church did well in the 4th century to contend for an orthodox doctrine of God, but she evidently was able to survive happlily for many centuries without dogmatic formulations regarding St Mary's origins. It seems that the key things we needed to confess regarding her are contained in the Creeds.
Now I am much more prepared to admit now than I was in years past that the discomfort that some of us feel about these pronouncements are partly cultural, but they are also theological and pastoral. I have no doubt that the Holy Father is able to maintain an appropriate respect for St Mary while not confusing this veneration with adoration of Jesus the Lord, but surely the honest catholic would have to admit that in some parts of the world, she is treated as a goddess. I go to mass about 1 -2 times per month, and the church I attend is Christocentric - not that the BVM is ignored, but she seems to point to Christ, not displace Him. However, I have been in latino churches where one could be excused for thinking that she is worshipped. Heck if you spend all your time standing in front of a statue of St Mary, how much time is left to focus on God, who alone is to be worshipped and adored?

respectfully

I would agree with you that there are certain groups that do seem to place Mary on a very high pedestal that it seems all their adoration does go to her only and not God...but then there are fanatics of every kinds in every denomination in the world that are good people but misguided in their faith. Not saying that you are doing this Carinet, but judging a certain few as the views of the entire Church is a flawed way of thinking...hence all the misrepresentation every faith has about the others. I'll admit, I have rolled my eyes a few times to those who pray at a statue of Mary with their back to the Crucifix...I suppose I could be nicer and pray that we all (myself included) find our way back (or closer) to God.

ClarinetLachlan wrote:

Cov,

I think the problem that many catholic-sympathetic Christians have is that the standards for acceptance as much higher than for cradle catholics. We all know "catholics" who have been baptized, confirmed etc, and who not only do not believe in the RP, for example, but probably don't know what it is!
And yet, they would be theoretcially welcomed at the Lord's table, but those of us who understand (as best we can, of course) and trust in the RP of the Jesus in the Eucharist, are denied participation.
But returning to the point, I would suggest that if a prospective new Catholic were to tell his RCIA director that he cannot in good conscience accept all the Marian doctrines (eg IC and Assumption), would the RCIA director not need to pass that info to the priest who may not accept the catecumenate?
A cradle catholic can just gloss over issues like this (and many more besides), whereas my suspicion is that this creates a problem for protestants who may wish to "convert".

respecfully,

I am not versed in RCIA formation.  I wish someone who was would pop in here.  I have heard many converts state that they at 1st found it hard to view Mary in the way she is honored by the Church.  But most of them have stated over time they came to fully understand and accept the Church's great love for its #1 Saint.  I am not sure you have adequately investigated the BVM's role as mother of the Church fully presented in the  teachings.  I am a cradle Catholic and learned about the BVM over time and in many different ways (culturally, CCD formation, etc.).  I admit I have a hard time wondering what the big deal is.  I understand the difference between adoration of Mary and worshipping God.  It actually goes hand in hand because in adoring the mother of our Lord, embracing her important role in the great mystery, I am expressing my true belief in the God. Mary brings me to the Lord all the time. I am greatful for her role in my spiritual life.

cove52 wrote:

Again what you view as worship is only adoration. It is an insult to a Catholic to told they "worship Mary". The individual who adores Mary to the degree of great adoration is actually only expressing, in one humble way, their great love for God. .

My intention is not to insult. I have discussed this issue with Catholic friends who are relieved to discover that I have paid sufficient attention to understand that they do not worship Mary. And I know a lot of it is cultural, and others here have acknowledged how difficult it is for some of us whose formation took place in a protestant culture, to accept aspects of catholic culture. However my observation has been within some latino communities, with which I am personally familiar, the adoration of the BVM simply seems to crowd out Jesus, rather than point ot Him.