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Switch to Forum Live View Why Are So Many Noncatholics Bothered By The Pope?
7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 6:26PM #61
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
I believe underneath it all, some of these non-catholics are jealous.  Some may be concerned that we may be doing something idolatrous and elevating a human to the level of Jesus himself.  Some have the usual/basic authority/obedience issues and like to have a more 'do what you want to' type of church.  some are upset by some catholics claiming there is no salvation outside the catholic church...  thinking catholics are arrogant...  am i hitting most of the hot buttons with regard to the thread topic?  sound familiar?  besides plain old rebellion...i don't have to do what some old celibate guy half a world away (for some) says...i know better/just as well/etc.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 8:43PM #62
Crickhollow
Posts: 34
I think most of you do understand what I'm getting at, and I really appreciate it. :-)

I would think honest, thoughtful conversions of any sort would be more difficult than being born into a particular community with a more or less firm set of convictions.  That's not to say that those born in the Church aren't sincere, or that they haven't thought things through.  Just that if the decision to convert is made as an adult rather than as a child or a teenager, there may be just as many things to unlearn as to learn!  And you may have a better sense of the consequences of your decision than if you made the decision when you were younger. Or if the decision was made for you by your parents, so to speak.

I haven't attended any catechism classes (in the Catholic Church at least), but I did attend an "Emmaus" class at the local parish which stipulated several doctrines as being "non-negotiable"...the Trinity and the Resurrection among them.  Also, the Real Presence, which I have a better grasp of now I think.  But also, the Marian doctrines, which is a bigger deal for me.

I often wish I was born Catholic, rather than trying unsuccessfully to graft in, since by the time I would realize what the deal was, it would be too late to worry about.  If that's jealous, I'm guilty as charged!  If I thought Catholics were arrogant or that the Pope was some useless old guy, I wouldn't bother to post.  I don't need to win, I just want to understand.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 10:02PM #63
ClarinetLachlan
Posts: 3
If I'm reading the tone of this discussion, it's not about jealousy - it's about legitimate theological issues. As much respect as we (non-catholics) might have for the BVM, I think it is legitimate that we might struggle with placing the Marian doctrines on the same level as the Trinity. Against serious heresy related to the Person of Christ, the Church did well in the 4th century to contend for an orthodox doctrine of God, but she evidently was able to survive happlily for many centuries without dogmatic formulations regarding St Mary's origins. It seems that the key things we needed to confess regarding her are contained in the Creeds.
Now I am much more prepared to admit now than I was in years past that the discomfort that some of us feel about these pronouncements are partly cultural, but they are also theological and pastoral. I have no doubt that the Holy Father is able to maintain an appropriate respect for St Mary while not confusing this veneration with adoration of Jesus the Lord, but surely the honest catholic would have to admit that in some parts of the world, she is treated as a goddess. I go to mass about 1 -2 times per month, and the church I attend is Christocentric - not that the BVM is ignored, but she seems to point to Christ, not displace Him. However, I have been in latino churches where one could be excused for thinking that she is worshipped. Heck if you spend all your time standing in front of a statue of St Mary, how much time is left to focus on God, who alone is to be worshipped and adored?

respectfully
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2008 - 4:01PM #64
Smurfette2002
Posts: 98

ClarinetLachlan wrote:

If I'm reading the tone of this discussion, it's not about jealousy - it's about legitimate theological issues. As much respect as we (non-catholics) might have for the BVM, I think it is legitimate that we might struggle with placing the Marian doctrines on the same level as the Trinity. Against serious heresy related to the Person of Christ, the Church did well in the 4th century to contend for an orthodox doctrine of God, but she evidently was able to survive happlily for many centuries without dogmatic formulations regarding St Mary's origins. It seems that the key things we needed to confess regarding her are contained in the Creeds.
Now I am much more prepared to admit now than I was in years past that the discomfort that some of us feel about these pronouncements are partly cultural, but they are also theological and pastoral. I have no doubt that the Holy Father is able to maintain an appropriate respect for St Mary while not confusing this veneration with adoration of Jesus the Lord, but surely the honest catholic would have to admit that in some parts of the world, she is treated as a goddess. I go to mass about 1 -2 times per month, and the church I attend is Christocentric - not that the BVM is ignored, but she seems to point to Christ, not displace Him. However, I have been in latino churches where one could be excused for thinking that she is worshipped. Heck if you spend all your time standing in front of a statue of St Mary, how much time is left to focus on God, who alone is to be worshipped and adored?

respectfully


I would agree with you that there are certain groups that do seem to place Mary on a very high pedestal that it seems all their adoration does go to her only and not God...but then there are fanatics of every kinds in every denomination in the world that are good people but misguided in their faith. Not saying that you are doing this Carinet, but judging a certain few as the views of the entire Church is a flawed way of thinking...hence all the misrepresentation every faith has about the others. I'll admit, I have rolled my eyes a few times to those who pray at a statue of Mary with their back to the Crucifix...I suppose I could be nicer and pray that we all (myself included) find our way back (or closer) to God.

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7 years ago  ::  May 01, 2008 - 11:32AM #65
cove52
Posts: 999

ClarinetLachlan wrote:

Heck if you spend all your time standing in front of a statue of St Mary, how much time is left to focus on God, who alone is to be worshipped and adored?

respectfully


Again what you view as worship is only adoration. It is an insult to a Catholic to told they "worship Mary". The individual who adores Mary to the degree of great adoration is actually only expressing, in one humble way, their great love for God. If you think a Catholic's expression of adoration to Mary is worship, maybe you should examine your own acts of worshiping God. My love for God cannot be measured. Even the word "worship" does not seem adequate to measure my great love for our Lord. You say only God alone should be "adored" I guess it would be wrong in your opinion to "adore" your child, your parent, your friend, or someone you greatly respect who has shown you love???

Where in the context of the Catholic Mass (our daily worship) is there time set aside to "worship Mary"? The "Hail Mary" is not recited in the context of the Mass. In my church there is no statue of the Blessed Virgin inside the Sanctuary to "worship" (of course no one "worships" any "statues" that would be idolatry and against Church teaching). We have icons of the Blessed Mother and the infant Jesus but icons are "teaching tools". 

Like I have stated before, different forms of adoration to Mary are mainly cultural. Some cultures are more flamboyant in how they express adoration and their "expressions" maybe misunderstood by someone from a different culture. I personally don't need a statue in front of me to feel connected to God but some find it comforting. We are "Catholic" meaning "universal".

"I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam."
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7 years ago  ::  May 01, 2008 - 12:03PM #66
cove52
Posts: 999

ClarinetLachlan wrote:

Cov,

I think the problem that many catholic-sympathetic Christians have is that the standards for acceptance as much higher than for cradle catholics. We all know "catholics" who have been baptized, confirmed etc, and who not only do not believe in the RP, for example, but probably don't know what it is!
And yet, they would be theoretcially welcomed at the Lord's table, but those of us who understand (as best we can, of course) and trust in the RP of the Jesus in the Eucharist, are denied participation.
But returning to the point, I would suggest that if a prospective new Catholic were to tell his RCIA director that he cannot in good conscience accept all the Marian doctrines (eg IC and Assumption), would the RCIA director not need to pass that info to the priest who may not accept the catecumenate?
A cradle catholic can just gloss over issues like this (and many more besides), whereas my suspicion is that this creates a problem for protestants who may wish to "convert".

respecfully,


I am not versed in RCIA formation.  I wish someone who was would pop in here.  I have heard many converts state that they at 1st found it hard to view Mary in the way she is honored by the Church.  But most of them have stated over time they came to fully understand and accept the Church's great love for its #1 Saint.  I am not sure you have adequately investigated the BVM's role as mother of the Church fully presented in the  teachings.  I am a cradle Catholic and learned about the BVM over time and in many different ways (culturally, CCD formation, etc.).  I admit I have a hard time wondering what the big deal is.  I understand the difference between adoration of Mary and worshipping God.  It actually goes hand in hand because in adoring the mother of our Lord, embracing her important role in the great mystery, I am expressing my true belief in the God. Mary brings me to the Lord all the time. I am greatful for her role in my spiritual life.

"I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam."
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6 years ago  ::  May 02, 2008 - 6:19AM #67
HappyMomof5
Posts: 155
Many of them get their information from the Bible. The problem is the KJV is missing important books which were taken out. remember the old testament is the basically the Torah. It's called by many the Apocrypha. Which means hidden. In these books of prophets are many clues to Mary. Also as much as they like to use Revelations they forget about about Chapter 12. Now I come from a very Protestant background. My parents had gotten a Bible with four different Bible versions in it. They were side by side two pages with for different texts lined up so you compare them. With the Apcrypha in it. When it came here it was missing from three of them. As I read the apocrypha. I saw at age 13 how  important she was. Then I did a little more studying on my own and found that in the written Aremic the word for any male relative is the same. When spoken it's different by the inflection of a slylable. So I started asking Question at Sunday School and of my very Bible versed grandmother. I was basically brushed aside and told that she couldn't have been assumed into heaven and she was just a lucky woman who happen to say yes to God. there were problably others who said no before. But if you look to the Prophetic books you'll see that they were talking directly about her.  Christ was to come directly from her lineage. Also when she went to visit Elizabeth, Elizabeth cried Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.  Mary was the Tabernacle of the new convenant. As for the assumption. I was taught that Moses and Elisha was assumed because they were so Holy. Well who could be more Holy then the woman who gave everything to bear our Lord and savior. I thought long and hard over this from 13 to 15 about the hardships she had to go through. What some at her time said about her the ridicule. She had to be walking with God. I started to understand the love between a mother and son when I met my Husband (at 15). If his mother asked him to do something if he could he would. His mother to this day is very important. to both of us. As I am to my boys. When you look at in this way why wouldn't Christ listen to his mother. Oh wait he did at the wedding in Cana. He even told her Why do you ask me of this it's not my time. But because of the respect he had for her he granted her wish. She was the one who was with through everything. Yes many times in the background as we mothers are but close to his heart as no one else could be. She is the spirtual mother of us all. just look.
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6 years ago  ::  May 03, 2008 - 11:59AM #68
ClarinetLachlan
Posts: 3

cove52 wrote:

Again what you view as worship is only adoration. It is an insult to a Catholic to told they "worship Mary". The individual who adores Mary to the degree of great adoration is actually only expressing, in one humble way, their great love for God. .


My intention is not to insult. I have discussed this issue with Catholic friends who are relieved to discover that I have paid sufficient attention to understand that they do not worship Mary. And I know a lot of it is cultural, and others here have acknowledged how difficult it is for some of us whose formation took place in a protestant culture, to accept aspects of catholic culture. However my observation has been within some latino communities, with which I am personally familiar, the adoration of the BVM simply seems to crowd out Jesus, rather than point ot Him.

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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2008 - 3:15PM #69
cove52
Posts: 999

ClarinetLachlan wrote:

My intention is not to insult. I have discussed this issue with Catholic friends who are relieved to discover that I have paid sufficient attention to understand that they do not worship Mary. And I know a lot of it is cultural, and others here have acknowledged how difficult it is for some of us whose formation took place in a protestant culture, to accept aspects of catholic culture. However my observation has been within some latino communities, with which I am personally familiar, the adoration of the BVM simply seems to crowd out Jesus, rather than point ot Him.


I don't think that it is meant as an insult most times when Christians outside the CC state their observation.  I was just trying to emphasis the fact that Catholics do not consider their adoration of Mary worship.

"I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam."
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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2008 - 6:06PM #70
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220
I don't think that Catholics practice adoration of Mary.  We consider it veneration.  Calling it adoration is a very loose definition of the word.  Such as: My sister's boyfriend really adores her.  I don't think Church documents refer to adoration of Mary.

Peace - Mareczku
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