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Switch to Forum Live View Why Are So Many Noncatholics Bothered By The Pope?
7 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2008 - 2:52AM #11
rjak134
Posts: 320

discerner4Him wrote:

I care because the Pope is to be treated and regarded AS GOD in the Catholic religion.  This is simply NOT TRUE.

Pope means father; he is even called by the divine title "Holy Father" - but the disciples of Jesus Christ know only one Father, God. "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9). Nor do we call anyone by the title "holy" except our God, for the Scriptures say: "Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy" (Revelations 15:4).

The Pope is also known as Supreme Pontiff, a title inherited from the old Roman pagan mystery religion. Pontiff (Latin pontifex) means a bridge; but for us Christians we have only one bridge to heaven -- one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

The Pope claims to be the vicar of Christ, and has worked all his life to bring peace on earth. But the One he claims to represent had another purpose. Jesus said: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). Jesus preached one God, one way of salvation - the Pope gives false hopes to those who worship other gods and seek salvation apart from Jesus Christ, to Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists. Thus he is loved by all, but Christ was hated by all, and crucified!

He claims to be the successor of St Peter, but unlike Peter, Pope John Paul II taught others to trust in Mary and to surrender the hour of death wholly to her care. The apostle Peter taught people to call on the only name given by God for our salvation, the blessed name of Jesus the Messiah. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

The Pope claims to be the infallible teacher of all Christians, but he distorts the clear meaning of Scripture to uphold traditional Catholic dogma. For example to defend the Mass (which is said to be a re-enactment and a carrying on of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross), Pope John Paul wrote: "Through the shedding of His own blood, Jesus Christ constantly 'ENTERS into God's sanctuary thus obtaining eternal redemption' (cf. Heb 9:12)" (Crossing the Threshold of Hope).

Compare the Pope's words with what the Bible actually says: "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He ENTERED the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12).

Notice how the word 'entered' is changed to 'enters' - giving the impression that this action is continuous rather than a simple action completed in the past. Moreover, the word 'once' is omitted, and the quotation is preceded by the word 'constantly.' Also, instead of 'having obtained' he writes 'obtaining', as if redemption is in the process of being accomplished! The meaning of this scripture is reversed! If Jesus 'constantly enters' the holy place, Christ is no better than the Levitical priests and if He has not obtained redemption, his blood is as powerless as that of goats and calves. But thanks be to God, His Word teaches the very opposite: "By his own blood he entered in once (not constantly enters) into the holy place, having obtained (not obtaining) eternal redemption for us."

What do you choose to believe: God's Word or the teaching of the papacy? Would you trust your salvation wholly in the hands of Jesus Christ alone? Or would you continue to perform religious works, do penance, rely on the daily sacrifice of the Mass, call on the name of Mary in the hope that perhaps you will be saved in the end?


I choose Christ.



....help from JustforCatholics.com


This post is so full of untruths and half-truths that I scarcely know where to begin!  I sincerely hope that you post these things is ignorance, because there are a great many grave falsehoods contained above.  I will only address a couple.

First, the ludicrous assertion that the Pope is regarded as God by Catholics.  That is patently false.  We do not worship the Pope in any way.  We do not even offer him the prayers and devotions that we offer to the saints!  We only acknowledge him in his role as successor of Peter, in the Scriptural and Patristic nature which that entails.  The Scriptures clearly establish the role of Peter as the first among the Apostles, and from the beginning it was understood that the See of Rome was uniquely that of Peter, and its occupant uniquely his successor.  The various titles refer to his role, given by Christ, of prominence in the Church and the fealty which we owe him.  Just as you do not confuse your own father with God the Father, we do not confuse the Pope, our spiritual father, with God the Father.  And there is simply no evidence, in Catholic teaching or practice, to indicate that we treat the Pope as God.

The second point I wish to address is the sneaky trick that anti-Catholics often try to pull when trying to refute Christ's teaching about the mass.  You falsely assert that Catholics hold the mass to be a continuation of Christ's action on the Cross.  This is not our doctrine.  We teach the it is a re-presentation of the one sacrifice.  Christ is eternal, as all His actions are eternal (i.e. are not strictly bound by time in the way that we are).  Thus when we witness to the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass, we do not witness a new sacrifice, nor do we witness the continuing of the old one, continually crucifying Christ.  Rather, we are brought into contact with the exact same sacrifice that was made on the Cross.  This is a great mystery, but it is the consistent teaching of the Church, from the New Testament up to the present day.

Beyond those two points, I would also like to point out that this forum, to my understanding, is not the appropriate place for attacks upon Catholicism, especially not for vicious and calumnious ones.  There is a Catholicism debate board where such things are expected.  These boards in the Faith Communities section are for people to converse and discuss with other members of their own faith and for respectful guests.  Coming in and spreading slander about the Church is not being a respectful guest.  Especially without introducing yourself! :)

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2008 - 3:27PM #12
steve123
Posts: 610
Discerner:
"God's Word or the teaching of the papacy? Would you trust your salvation wholly in the hands of Jesus Christ alone? Or would you continue to perform religious works, do penance, rely on the daily sacrifice of the Mass, call on the name of Mary in the hope that perhaps you will be saved in the end?"

God's Word and the teaching of the Papacy - The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Jesus Christ Alone - I believe that Catholic teaching teaches this - that we are saved through Christ's work on the Cross to reconcile us to God.
Religious Works - If you mean good works, we are commanded numerous times in Scripture to perform them.  If by religious works you think that they are dead rituals, they are not.  They have much symbolism (as far as the Liturgy goes) and meaning.
Call on Mary - Why not ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us?
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2008 - 8:11PM #13
cove52
Posts: 999
discerner4him--

Oh my....(sigh) Where does one begin? All I can say is, brother you are so off the mark. Over the years posting here I have seen many posts like yours. I have learned to ignore them because people who have decided that they know everything really don't want to be told that they are wrong. I guess what I am saying is I know I am wasting my time, but what the heck I have a few minutes to spare.

I tried to use your link but came up with nothing. I could not access what you are interpreting here. It looks as though you took words out of context and twisted them to fit what you want to believe or think you know. (shrug)

I think the 1st lesson for anyone who considers themselves "Christian" and think they can evangelize should be a lesson in "tolerance" (I admit intolerance has been my downfall in the past. I generally have no tolerance for ignorant anti-Catholics). One must shed their intolerance in their quest to be more Christ like. Grace, tolerance and a sincere will to understand our fellow man is the 1st step in proper evangilization. You really go about it in the wrong way, imo.

Just a few points:

The Pope is NOT treated or regarded as God in the Catholic religion. He is treated with respect because of his position as Apostolic successor to the seat of Peter. In the past 2000 years there have been hundreds of Popes. The recent Pope is Benedict not JPII.

Where do you think the bible came from??? A basic history lesson in the early Christians will help you with that one.

By your analogy if I call my dad "Father", I am commiting blasphemy. What about foster-father or step-father??? Are these also wrong to say???




I must say, though, you certainly answered the original question, lol.
"I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam."
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 3:11PM #14
Grumpyturtle
Posts: 55

samsyard wrote:

I hope I don't appear to be bashing other non-Catholic Christian sects, but I do believe that  much of the Protestant anti-Pope rhetoric is derived from those pastors or preachers who either consciously or unconsciously do not want to bow to an absolute moral authority, and frankly not even to the authority of God Himself. This stems from the fact that Protestant preachers are hired by their congregations.  If their moral preachings are too strict for the congregation, they get the boot. So they have to adjust in order to keep their jobs. In fact one of my non-Catholic friends even told me proudly that the elders of his church were the ones who picked their pastors. unlike us "poor" Catholics who had to settle for whatever priest was assigned to the parish.
Even in those churches that were established by a popular preacher, he must make sure that he keeps his congregation satisfied, or he might end up preaching to an empty hall with no more revenues to telecast his services.
I hope I haven't offended anyone's sensibilities, but I think we have to be frank in order to understand why there is so much hostility in the Protestant world against Cathplicism.


You know as a Protestant myself I do not particularly get upset by anything he says. I do not see him in the way you do but I believe to show repect for other people by not bashing him at every turn. Personally if you want to know something, most protestants are acknowleging the authority of The Church of Rome every week when they attend church on Sunday. They do it in spite of themselves. The Bible never changed God's Sabbath. The Church of Rome did. So there it is. They can fuss all they want and slam Catholics all they want but the fact is they are acknowleging Papal authority just the same.

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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 3:23PM #15
Grumpyturtle
Posts: 55
We are assigned our Pastors also and we do not as a congregation pay our Minister.  Business is handled through the differant conferences such as in Florida we are through the Southern Conference. We have a main conference that handles all the conferences. We have a President of our conference. It seems a little complicated but it works. All our Ministers make the same modest income regardless of the size of the church. I would not like to attend a church where the congregation could get rid of a Pastor if they decided he was to conservative or liberal. I see what you mean though because I know of alot of churches like that. One great thing about the Catholic Church is its Organization.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 4:18PM #16
Laura78
Posts: 2,774
I think a lot of the anti-Catholic sentiment is based on poor understanding of what catholics actually believe in.

Papal infallibility and Papal authprity...not the same concept. Just so hard to get it.
The primacy of conscience, possibility of salvation of those who by no fault of their own know not about the Gospel...etc. It is quite hard to grasp unless you have attended Catechism for many years...

9 times out of 10 the points the critics make are misunderstandings. Such us worshiping the Pope as God...if they think that, of course they think we are a heresy...and if we did worship the Pope as God, we would be...

I find that a lot of the anti-Catholic stuff comes way more from conservative Protestant churches, way more than the "liberal" ones.
The Catholic Church not ever changing opinion is not the reason why they hate Catholics I think.
In fact, the Catholic Church has somewhat "changed teachings", not in the sense that it denied the past, but in the sense that as a Church we are growing and slowly getting more and more like we were meant to be. Like a child, he/she is always the same person, but there is change too.

Conservative Protestants don't like that.They are stuck with a literal reading of the Bible. Too scared to think about other possible undertandings because there is no Holy Tradition to make sure they don't err.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 6:41PM #17
Grumpyturtle
Posts: 55
I believe the Bible is literal in some things but not in others. I am actually attending a Catholic University and I hope to learn more about Catholic traditions. I chose this University over my own denomination mostly because they seem to be more willing to help you in enrollment and they were more friendly and way more helpful. I don't hate Catholics by the way, we are all trying to get to the same place after all.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 9:00PM #18
dawngordon
Posts: 16
because the pope has false idols in Gods temple for one, and he tore apart the laws the sins,

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass those laws were to be followed,

the Pope likes to think he God,
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 10:14PM #19
Candlemass
Posts: 12
Someone mentioned Fr. Corapi, he's my new hero in the faith!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhAyEZR4gUk
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 10:15PM #20
Candlemass
Posts: 12

dawngordon wrote:

because the pope has false idols in Gods temple for one, and he tore apart the laws the sins,

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass those laws were to be followed,

the Pope likes to think he God,


This sounds like "Jack Chick" rhetoric!

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