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Flag imsavedru November 17, 2008 3:00 PM EST
If a christian commits suicide, can they go to heaven?

Food for thought -tell me yours!!
Flag imsavedru November 18, 2008 9:39 AM EST
For the sake of discussion (LOL)...what happens if a person has unrepented of sin at the time of death- suicide would fall in that category I would think. Phil 4:8 tells us what we are to "think upon". A person who is suicidal not only doesn't know their identity in Christ (The Holy Spirit dwells within the believer), they have Grieved the Holy Spirit by an act "outside" of God's will (asumming that is not God's will to take control of one's OWN life) and they have not (obviously) applied Phil 4:8. If they had.... thoughts of suicide would not have overtaken them. The Word says that SATAN robs, kills, and destroys. If we were to kill ourself - are we not acting upon Satan's will and NOT God's?

We are also told to DENY ourselves and carry our cross. Suicide in NOT denying ourselves - it is the ultimate act of selfishness and hopelessness- NOT love. Our hope is to be in the Lord not ourselves. It might appear that the SAVED person (when they committed suicide) actually walked away from Jesus Christ.

I want to prompt a discussion here.
Flag Brownowl33 December 5, 2008 2:47 PM EST
[QUOTE=imsavedru;903539]For the sake of discussion (LOL)...what happens if a person has unrepented of sin at the time of death- suicide would fall in that category I would think. Phil 4:8 tells us what we are to "think upon". A person who is suicidal not only doesn't know their identity in Christ (The Holy Spirit dwells within the believer), they have Grieved the Holy Spirit by an act "outside" of God's will (asumming that is not God's will to take control of one's OWN life) and they have not (obviously) applied Phil 4:8. If they had.... thoughts of suicide would not have overtaken them. The Word says that SATAN robs, kills, and destroys. If we were to kill ourself - are we not acting upon Satan's will and NOT God's?

We are also told to DENY ourselves and carry our cross. Suicide in NOT denying ourselves - it is the ultimate act of selfishness and hopelessness- NOT love. Our hope is to be in the Lord not ourselves. It might appear that the SAVED person (when they committed suicide) actually walked away from Jesus Christ.

I want to prompt a discussion here.[/QUOTE]

I don't belong in this forum (I just saw the topic up here while I was browsing the main boards) but I'll chime in my two cents.  I have had friends that committed suicide, and it was just this line of thinking ("Their lives were so horrible that they killed themselves, and now God is punishing them in Hell for eternity for it!") that turned me from a Christian into an atheist.  If there is a god, I hope it's not to petty, spiteful, and hateful that it condemns to torture people who are so desperate that commit suicide.  Such a "god" wouldn't be fit for anything but contempt.

I don't doubt this post will be deleted, but since it is a personal issue I had to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves anymore. What a sick, disgusting theology
Flag imsavedru December 5, 2008 4:56 PM EST
ChrisSuperstar -
Well, Im glad you are here - for whatever reason.  Why would this be deleted?  You have every right to an opinion - and you come from a personal place of having known people in a frame of mind that was so hurtful that suicide was an option for them. This question was intended to prompt a discussion - and it did. *SMILE*

Thank you for your perspective.  It IS valid. But let me say, it is not God who is unfair - it is people.  We dont have knowledge of others circumstances or see the "whole" picture in their life.  Only God knows each of us intimately. God is not a sadist- (one who is unfair and cruel and lacking understanding and wanting to see us hurt). Just by His nature He is........beyond love and compassion.

I was speaking to those who call themselves "Christians" and find themselves in desperate circumstances without hope.  Christians are to base their hope in Christ - hence, my question about these important matters regarding the LACK OF HOPE some might feel even though refering to themselves as christians.

Again........thank you for your contribution.  We can all learn from each other.

Peace.
Flag kurnell January 19, 2009 6:40 PM EST
imsavedru,
you need to spend time with those who suffer depression and are continually troubled with suicidal ideation.You would learn a lot and hopefully, be less judgemental.Christians are not exempt from this type of suffering.Only God and themselves, know the hell they endure.As Jesus showed us what the Father is like in the Gospels, a God of pity and compassion,He will met them in love and bring them into His presence for ever.
Pax
Jeffrey
Flag imsavedru January 22, 2009 3:50 PM EST
kurnell -

You bring up a point worth pondering. While all people go through a gamet of emotions from joy to anger- (those being part of being human)  Christians who "continually suffer" from depression and suicidal thoughts are "oppressed" according to scripture. That is of the Enemy, not just a flesh or human struggle but a struggle in the spirit realm .Timothy speaks of having a SOUND mind.  One who is discouraged or depressed can certainly still have a sound mind - just as David in the Psalms said HE was discouraged. But If a person deals with an overwhelming and continual feeling of suicide and helplessness, the God of Hope cannot be in them as the Holy Spirit seeks to ensure a "Life more abundantly" according to Jesus. Jehovah God is a God of hope and rescue ( not intending or wanting his creation to suffer).  We will sometimes suffer from our own choices OR perhaps even from chemical or genetic reasons.  It does not dismiss one's responsibility as a Christian who has been "bought with a price" by the blood of Jesus . Killing themselves is not an innocent action. It is saying "Jesus is not enough and is not my healer".  That my friend, is a lie.

By the way, my brother suffers from depression and has spoken of suicidal thoughts.  He is an atheist.  Enough said.
Flag kurnell January 23, 2009 7:17 AM EST
imsavedru,
Your fundamentalist interpretation of scripture would be of no use to someone suffering depression. It offers no hope, only condemnation and pain.Like Job's 'comforters', never entering into the pain of the sufferer, just standing by and passing judgement.
May God open your eyes and give you a compassionate heart.
Pax
Jeffrey
Flag imsavedru January 23, 2009 9:13 PM EST
"Jehovah God is a God of hope and rescue ( not intending or wanting his creation to suffer)."  I wrote this in my last post.  You overlooked that and other things I said regarding Jesus being the Healer and that our life is HIS and not our own.  This is a Christian post - therefore my speaking of the Holy Spirit  and Jesus' promise of a life MORE ABUNDANT is quite appropriate. Those words are quite hopeful.

It seems that your judgement of my comments has actually made you the judgmental one.
Flag imsavedru January 23, 2009 9:15 PM EST
what hopeful words do you have to offer?
Flag Mark_The_Servant January 30, 2009 11:55 PM EST
The Lord Jesus Christ is Savior but he is also Lord. What is he Savior Of? Is he just a get out of  "jail free card", or is he Savior from sin? The Bible makes it very clear that faith alone cannot save? Faith is required and without it one cannot be saved...but faith without works is dead. One who is believing and walking in that belief will also be speaking and renewing their mind in the Word of God which is the seed of faith whereby one grows.Faith is the substance and the evidence that one has passed from death into life. To say that I believe, and do contrary is proof that I have not believed with the heart (spirit). To say that I have hope in the Lord without patience...is not hope at all. If I hear and not do....my faith is no different than the devil. He believes and even trembles...yet it does not change him at all.

Someone who commits suicide is not believing in the Word and is sinning. The Bible says that we are not our own but are bought with the precious blood of Jesus. If he died for all, then all should die to themselves. The Bible says that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bare...but will with the temptation make a way of escape. In order to commit suicide one has to say, "I am not able to bare,"  and calls God a liar, and God cannot lie nor will he be found unfaithful on judgment day.

God puts before us life and death..and he tells us to choose life. He will not violate our will. He has given us a free will...but will hold us accountable to the choice that we make. As long as we are in this body we have a will to choose because God gave us a material body to sense the material world around us. But, when we die our spirit does not have free will nor can we choose. The spirit world will be determined by the choices that we made in this life according to the Word of God.

We are told to try Jesus....he is presented as a passive Lord that humbly waits at the hearts door begging for an opportunity to prove his love to soverign mans will. But the truth of the matter is he is not coming as a suffering lamb, but as a risen Lord. He has defeated the devil, triumphed over sin, and has received an incorruptible inheritance which was discussed between the Godhead before the foundation of the world. He demands Lordship over a humble mans heart. He is to be worshiped in the spirit, soul, and the body. He is to be honored, adored, exalted in everything we do...and we are to serve him with fear. He is love...and a consuming fire. He is the lamb of God....and the lion of the tribe of Judah. He brings peace...and a sword. He sings and dances over the righteous....but he will punish and destroy all who are unrighteous.

The beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord!
Flag Mark_The_Servant January 31, 2009 1:18 AM EST

kurnell wrote:

imsavedru,
you need to spend time with those who suffer depression and are continually troubled with suicidal ideation.You would learn a lot and hopefully, be less judgemental.Christians are not exempt from this type of suffering.Only God and themselves, know the hell they endure.As Jesus showed us what the Father is like in the Gospels, a God of pity and compassion,He will met them in love and bring them into His presence for ever.
Pax
Jeffrey


you need to spend time with those who suffer depression and are continually troubled with suicidal ideation


People who suffer depression and have suicidal ideation need to spend time in the Word of God. Depression is part of the curse by which the law of sin a death holds bound. Christians are not under the curse because the curse was bore by our Savior and we operate under a new law called the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

You would learn a lot and hopefully, be less judgemental.Christians are not exempt from this type of suffering.


No matter how you slice it, or dice it...a Christian that is depressed...is walking in unbelieif. Feelings to a Christian that is obeying the Word of God are to be ignored. Christians are to cast down every high thing that exalts itself above the knowledge of God and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.  We are not to be conformed to this world but transformed by the renewing of mind according to the Word of God. We have not been given the spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind.

The truth of the matter is that we are a tri-part being: We are a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body. Our spirit is God conscience, our soul is self-conscience, and our body is world conscience. Our spirit is saved, our soul is being saved, and our body is going to be destroyed..and we will be given a new one. In our spirit resides all the power of the God head with every promise that says, "yes and amen." This is our position in Christ. In our soul is our will, emotion, and self. In our body through our senses lies the flesh which is utterly corrupt. (though through the cross it has lost its power) If we choose to renew our minds (soul) and choose to obey the spirit, we will walk in victory and not defeat. If we choose to obey our feelings or our flesh, we will walk in defeat. This is why we are told to renew our minds in the Word of God. If we choose our spirit...we will walk in the spirit.....If we choose our flesh we will walk in the flesh. The former brings peace and life...the latter brings death. If you will recieve it...This is shown in the KJV Bible when Mary hears Elizabeth prophecy. Mary says, "my soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. Marys spirit rejocied (past tense) , therefore her soul magnifies (present tense) the Lord. One cannot be depressed if they are operating from their spirit, because God is not depressed. 

a God of pity and compassion


God does not have pity and compassion in the sense that he understands and sympathizes with them and wishes that he could somehow help them. ( I take this as your meaning ) The good news is that he bore their sickness, and carried their diseases, and with his stripes they are healed. He has given them the annointing of the Holy Ghost which is burden removing yoke destroying power. Christians are perishing only because they are lacking knowledge. Do you not understand...that their is no power in the Lords tears. He can sympathize and cry all he wants..that is not going to heal the mind of the depressed. Their is no power in the Lords tears. When Jesus Cryed to the Father...he asked the Lord if their was another way. If their was any other way except through dying on the cross the Father would not have allowed his Son to Go. If all he had to do was cry and have sympathy for the souls of man, he would not have had to die. The truth is as it always has been. Gods power is in his Word and he upholds all things by it. To entertain depression..or sympathize with the depressed is to deny the words of the Lord when he cryed out on the cross, "It is finished." He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness and is seated (not working) at the right hand of God the Father. This is the good news of the gospel...and it should be shouted from every house top. Depressed people cannot be depressed and acting on the Word of God. Feelings that are not lining up with the Word should be treated like profanity to the Christian Disciple of the Lord...and the Lord promises, that if we walk in his Word we shall be free as he is, because the truth sets us free.

Flag imsavedru February 1, 2009 5:23 PM EST
Mark_The_Servant

My point exactly.  You just put it better. ;)

Claudia
Flag Jbsmith August 3, 2009 10:14 AM EDT

I seen this thread and I felt the need to post. Good subject to get discussion on to start with I must say. I will probly break my responce down into several posts do to time, and being to lazy to type, and possibly space.


To start I seen several posts from people saying about bringing in a point of veiw so I am here to do that. The question of suicide is a loaded one and can be veiwed from several angles. But ultimantly the answer is its wrong and leads to condemption. Not because God is a hateful or spiteful God but rather it is because we have turned ourselves away and deprived God the ability to do his will for our lives.  I know first hand being in a situation and depression gets the best of you, you can not see it that way. Suicide is actually the result of a chain reaction of events. Sometimes its because a persons choice to stay were they are. Again I no it sounds cold and heartless but its the truth there are people that want life to fail so its their scapegoat. You also have people no matter what they do in this life it is nothing but a battle that you seem to loose in this life. No amount of help or resources are available in the time of need. You might have one person that can give a little to try and help you out of the Black Hole you are stuck in. In a state of depression that leaves a person suicidal typically the person is physically and menally drained of life, not to mention in some cases are looking at this world implodeing and feel they are dead or dieing anyway- staying alive just prolongs the pain. it don't help that peoples attitudes become if your a Christian or a Godly person you would never get down our depressed because Chirst and God are our Hope.  Little do people know that can be the driving force to want to commit suicide. Its a means to escape the Living Hell we exsist in at this point. It can be an act of knowing there is a merciful ,just God and rather deal directly with him then to keep fighting what seems like a desperatly loosing battle.  Depression itself is an intresting creature. For me it is comprised of a sad anger and also physically being drained.


Another thing thats not understood by mainstream Christianity is some very Godly people fought depression and suicidal thoughts. For those who don't know or understand it they will never understand and would and do argue that its a twisting of the bible because it don't fit there preconceived notion of what Liveing in Christianity or Liveing Godly is all about.


Just to quickly touch on that point with a few examples I'll revisit it later in depth in another post:  The two that pop in my mind without thinking on it are Elijah anf Job. 


With Elijah what stands out is right after God preformed the Miracle on the alter of burning the drenched sacrifce and had slews of pagan priests killed he ended up plunging into depression once Jezebel decided to have him hunted and killed for haveing her "prophets" killed (1Kings19:4).


With Job it was when then best of the situation got the best of him  (Job 3- the entire chapter) .   The book of Job is the picture of Life inside Depression from a Godly persons point of veiw.


I said earlier that that suicide is putting condemnation on ones self. To understand this better you need to understand a parent child relationship. ( I know some people to some degree may not fully know what that is). We have free will, we can do whatever we wish , but every choice has a consenquince. Weather good or bad -it still has consenquences.  If someone chooses to break the law- no matter how much the parent may try and keep the child from doing so, if the child chooses to break the law-- the law will take hold. There will be punishment in time. It might not be right away but it eventually will come even if it meens death in the proces of commiting a crime. The parent has no control over this, and it hurts those around the person that chooses that life but ultimantly its a choice, no matter what justification there is for it.  The same with Suicide its a choice. If you hold on ( and at times it seems like an eternity) God will open doors in ways that blow the mind, in ways only God can do. The problen becomes we live in such a fast paced driven society that we have no concept of waiting on the Lord.  Society as a whole demands that we smash in doors we can never open, jump thru hoops and dance around and flip around when we barly have the strength to breathe or keep our hearts beatting. We are thrusted into this circus act and instead of resting for a short season and letting dust settled we are smashed and crumpled and riped to shreds , we are already dead in our eyes so why not go to the potential source of the only peace we may ever know, the worst case its just the same as we are living now. 


I have been at deaths doorstep several times in my lifetime and not by any acts that i did upon myself. Being in those places and surviveing Pull you closer to God and also allow you to see how he works if you give him a chance to gather the resources needed to take you to a better place. In the skewed eyes of depression though you see God as a source to bury into and this life has you ripped away and seperated and the only way to get back into his arms is to enter his courtyard, and the only means of that is the portal of death.


I hope this helped to shed some light on some things , also I missed something in reading the logs to see what was ever posted that was cold or derogitory or heartless to us folks that do suffer. I just seen a sincere question of curiousity to pick at peoples minds.

Flag Quiggs October 5, 2009 4:14 PM EDT

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer on this. I was always taught that people who commit suicide do not go to Heaven. However, I have a friend whose aunt committed suicide, but she was mentally ill. She was schizophrenic, and having a very severe episode when it happened.


So, I wonder if God forgives those who don't understand what they are doing?

Flag GodsGarden February 19, 2014 8:18 PM EST

"No matter how you slice it, or dice it...a Christian that is depressed...is walking in unbelieif"


 


While I realize this post is old, I came across this and felt compelled to respond.  The perspective above exhibits a real ignorance.  Depression is often a physical illness.  Would you say a diabetic is walking in unbelief?  Someone with hypertension is walking in unbelief? 


Depression involves a level of pain that those who have not experienced it cannot understand.  Many of those who contemplate suicide, do so not from lack of belief, but because biochemical brain problems cause them to feel terrible, have distorted thinking, and experience great emotional pain -- pain they are willing to do anything to get rid of, even die.


A friend of mine who was very depressed contemplated suicide, but did not follow through fortunately. Depression ran in her family.  The right medication changed her whole life, by freeing her brain from a terrible affliction.


To accuse someone in great pain of unbelief and to lay their pain on their own doorstep as a fault is the height of uncharitableness.


 


 

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