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6 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2008 - 4:55PM #21
slu_magoo
Posts: 996
I'm from a congregational background (Disciples of Christ) where the minister and deacons typically serve the role as consecrators.   I have been to many, many Disciples services where laypeople presided.  And the world didn't fall apart.  (Granted Disciples have a hybrid view of Communion that includes both 'real presence' and memorial.)

Anyway, as I have written time and again, it never ceases to amaze me how inconsistent some of my Episcopal brethren and sistren can be.  I know folks who deny the creeds as definitive, deny the Virgin Birth, deny the physical resurrection of Christ, etc., yet who think some priestly hocus-pocus is absolutely necessary for Communion to be valid.  It makes no sense to me at all.

I'll continue to know that Communion is valid wherever two or three are gathered in Christ's name.  (The requirement that only priests can consecrate is an invention of the ancient--corrupt--church that allowed the church to control its subjects.  I disavow senseless traditions.)
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 1:07PM #22
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
"I'll continue to know that Communion is valid wherever two or three are gathered in Christ's name."

I heartily agree and will celebrate it when requested.

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 1:10PM #23
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
As a side note ... didn't the congregation at one time, in the history of the church, recite the prayer of consecration together?

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 1:07PM #24
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
"I'll continue to know that Communion is valid wherever two or three are gathered in Christ's name."

I heartily agree and will celebrate it when requested.

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 1:10PM #25
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
As a side note ... didn't the congregation at one time, in the history of the church, recite the prayer of consecration together?

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 10:04AM #26
triqueta
Posts: 80
French Catholics once had "worker priests" (before the movement was squelched by the Vatican, surprise!) who lived and worked among working class Catholics. Perhaps instead of small groups of lay members to consecrate the Eucharist, we could increase the number of priests available to them.

Perhaps what needs to change is the notion of "priest" as one who goes off to seminary for years and then becomes professionally religious -- perhaps it would work in some cases for the local bishop to ordain men and women of proven gifts to minister in their communities while holding down a job like everyone else?
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 10:25AM #27
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,926

triqueta wrote:

French Catholics once had "worker priests" (before the movement was squelched by the Vatican, surprise!) who lived and worked among working class Catholics. Perhaps instead of small groups of lay members to consecrate the Eucharist, we could increase the number of priests available to them.

Perhaps what needs to change is the notion of "priest" as one who goes off to seminary for years and then becomes professionally religious -- perhaps it would work in some cases for the local bishop to ordain men and women of proven gifts to minister in their communities while holding down a job like everyone else?



Triqueta,

I agree completely. And, in a way, we're doing some of that now, with various an sundry clergy-hybrids. We're got perpetual Deacons in far greater quantity than ever. We also have lay-chaplains, Stephens Ministers and a whole host of other groups doing various pieces of what used to be the sole responsibility fo priests. I'm all for it, and let the movement continue.:)

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 7:20PM #28
artemis01
Posts: 925
[QUOTE=triqueta;583785]Perhaps what needs to change is the notion of "priest" as one who goes off to seminary for years and then becomes professionally religious -- perhaps it would work in some cases for the local bishop to ordain men and women of proven gifts to minister in their communities while holding down a job like everyone else?[/QUOTE]

I have a friend in the Independent Catholic movement who does this; most in that movement are priests of this type, in fact.

But I still can't see why it takes a priest to consecrate the elements.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 11:53PM #29
triqueta
Posts: 80
[QUOTE=artemis01;584880]I have a friend in the Independent Catholic movement who does this; most in that movement are priests of this type, in fact.

But I still can't see why it takes a priest to consecrate the elements.[/QUOTE]

It's a good question that raises others. What happens when the elements are consecrated? What changes? The elements? Our awareness about them? If baptism is the primary sacrament of Christian initiation and service, why would anything more be required?

For me, and it's not a very sophisticated answer, an ordained priesthood is one of the things that identifies us as a community. We do things this way because this speaks of who we are in a way that other ways do not. So I'm not a Baptist or a Congregationalist . Those are all fine; but they are not who I am.

Priesthood and its attendant symbols speak to me in a way that some guy in a business suit does not. A priest's hands have been blessed for her work by a bishop who was in turn blessed by bishops going all the way back to the first followers of Jesus (as unimpressive as most of them seemed to be, they were chosen by him). So when she speaks and acts in her sacramental capacity, she touches me with the voice and the hands of Jesus.

To me, that is very powerful. It connects me in a certain way to Jesus.

That's enough -- sorry to be so windy!!
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 12:45PM #30
Mostyn32
Posts: 2,941
I agree that it's high time the Diocese of Sydney stopped pretending that it is Anglican and admitted that it is Presbyterian and act accordingly. Abp Jensen, however, not only wants to have his cake and eat it, but he'd like another slice as well.

There is already accommodation for lay presidency at the Eucharist in certain circumstances. I, for instance, am a licensed lay reader in my diocese. As such, I take reserved sacrament to people in hospital and nursing homes and to those who are housebound due to chronic illness or mobility problems. Twice a month I conduct Eucharist services at nursing homes in our parish, using reserved sacrament.

As a lay reader I can also baptize when there is no priest available, I can preach and I can conduct funeral services. I've never tried to conduct a marriage in the church, but since I am licenced by the same body that licences priests to perform marriages (i.e. the provincial government) I see no reason why that should not happen.

In my parish, whoever presides at a particular part of the service dons the priest's stole prior to carrying out the duty - e.g. the lectors, intercessors.

The very definition of a priest is that he or she is one set apart to perform specific duties - chief of which are the consecration of the elements of Holy Communion, giving absolution after confession, and giving the Apostolic blessing.  All other activities of a priest can be carried out by lay people. If that's a problem for some, then I would suggest that they find a church that does not function in the episcopal model.       
"God is no captious sophister, eager to trip us up whenever we say amiss, but a courteous tutor, ready to amend what, in our weakness or our ignorance, we say ill, and to make the most of what we say aright."  from 'A Learned Discourse on Justification', a sermon by Richard Hooker (1554-1600).
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