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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 6:16PM #31
artemis01
Posts: 925
[QUOTE=Mostyn32;590894][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]The very definition of a priest is that he or she is one set apart to perform specific duties - chief of which are the consecration of the elements of Holy Communion, giving absolution after confession, and giving the Apostolic blessing.  All other activities of a priest can be carried out by lay people. If that's a problem for some, then I would suggest that they find a church that does not function in the episcopal model.        [/QUOTE]

"Episcopal" refers to a church that has Bishops.  The Methodists also have Bishops.

But I am definitely considering another church; I may become an Independent Catholic (which of course does "function in the episcopal model") - because I'm growing tired of Episcopal priests and having to beg for more frequent Eucharist.   Hardly any Episcopal parishes bother to offer the Eucharist except on Sunday, and almost none pray the Daily Office publicly; I really don't think they're keeping up their end of this bargain. 

If all they have to do is consecrate the elements, and they're not even doing that - then it's certainly time to think about other options.  Indy Catholicism is the best one, primarily because it's actually doing what Anglicanism ought to be doing.  Including offering same-sex blessings, BTW, instead of simply talking about them.

Still, there's no real reason to limit consecration to priests; as I said, it's not magic.   There's no reason, either, really, to continue to belong to the church when we could be having Eucharist at home with friends and neighbors.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 9:39PM #32
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
"All other activities of a priest can be carried out by lay people. If that's a problem for some, then I would suggest that they find a church that does not function in the episcopal model.'

Oh my ... did someone poop in your Cornflakes?  Love it or leave it mentality!

Jesus was not ordained .. nor were any of the Apostles .... MAN MADE ..... MAN MADE!!  Why is it people forget that?

BTW Mostyn .... your parish/diocese may be different .. they don't all work the same.  We only have one parish in our diocese that will allow reserved sacrament to be taken to shut ins and that is because their priest is disabled and can't do it.  I had Prostate Cancer surgery on June 9th and here it is June 27th and I have not had anyone from the church ask if I would like the sacraments brought to me.  I have not been able to get to church due to some complications.  Fortunately I have reserved sacrament at home  .... not from the church BTW.

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 10:39PM #33
artemis01
Posts: 925
[QUOTE=brjohnbc;591891]"All other activities of a priest can be carried out by lay people. If that's a problem for some, then I would suggest that they find a church that does not function in the episcopal model.'

Oh my ... did someone poop in your Cornflakes?  Love it or leave it mentality![/QUOTE]

It is a bit strange, I agree, to be issuing "if you don't like it, get out" ultimatums during a peaceful discussion of a topic.  Anglicans in Canada are 7% of the population, and in America we are 1.7% of the population.

I don't think it's good policy at this point to be throwing people out willy-nilly.  Some of us may be taking you up on it sooner than you think, Mostyn.

Whoops!  Down to 6% and .9%!
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:02AM #34
Eak
Posts: 227
Hi,
Interesting thread. I have shared many HolyCommunions with different groups of xians in homes and in emerging churches and so forth. No "preconsecrated" elements were used or desired.  All of us there were simply gathering in His Name and doing in rememberance of Him as He tells us in the Gospel..
and no-- we didn't have a priest make it all "okay" or official.

Now I know many will say that this is not the sacrament or whatever.. that the priest somehow makes it legitimate... but I am not even sure what the "it" is that they are making legitimate??  they are somehow "producing" Jesus for the people...??

I keep it simple for me-- in that I believe Jesus is always with us- with me.
His promise is given to me in the words of the Gospel.

the part that confuses me is the claiming that there is some special "way" that He is comes to us.... only IF a properly ordained priest says certain words over certain formulas of elements then Jesus is somehow "more" with those people??
or what???  I mean really... I am being serious... I just have never understood it.. 

Okay okay I can hear the groans and the replies-- Hey you ain't even a Pisky so it don't matter-- leave us alone-- this is how we do things and they do matter to us!

Just don't thump my head too hard. okay? I have had a hard time lately  :( 

I do understand the holiness of having ritual together-- of saying the prayers of the Eucharist--
of becoming aware of Jesus presence... of receiving..
of literally taking Jesus in-- and letting myself be transformed by His presence in my life...   

I am not proposing churches stop doing things the way they do them. And of course they have the right to order things the way they want to and the believers in those rules are entitled to their beliefs.

Artemis you made me laugh as I envisioned the danger of it all.. imagine.. Christians everywhere..joining  at tables every day of the week sharing Communion...celebrating ... my my my
we can't have that now!  Communion anarchy! lol...

I know I don't post much-- but wanted to share on this thread.       

Love to All- you are a good group of souls
Eak
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:17AM #35
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
Oh heavens ... I should clarify that.  We only have one parish that is allowed to let lay people take reserved sacrament to shutins.  I didn't mean that only one parish could take the sacrament to shutins .. LOL

Sorry about that.

Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:39AM #36
triqueta
Posts: 80
[QUOTE=brjohnbc;591891 ] I had Prostate Cancer surgery on June 9th and here it is June 27th and I have not had anyone from the church ask if I would like the sacraments brought to me.  I have not been able to get to church due to some complications.  Fortunately I have reserved sacrament at home  .... not from the church BTW.

Blessings
Bro. John[/QUOTE]

Hope you are recovering well, Bro. John. You're in my prayers.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 9:57AM #37
artemis01
Posts: 925
[QUOTE=Eak;592170]Hi,
Interesting thread. I have shared many HolyCommunions with different groups of xians in homes and in emerging churches and so forth. No "preconsecrated" elements were used or desired.  All of us there were simply gathering in His Name and doing in rememberance of Him as He tells us in the Gospel..
and no-- we didn't have a priest make it all "okay" or official.

Now I know many will say that this is not the sacrament or whatever.. that the priest somehow makes it legitimate... but I am not even sure what the "it" is that they are making legitimate??  they are somehow "producing" Jesus for the people...??

I keep it simple for me-- in that I believe Jesus is always with us- with me.
His promise is given to me in the words of the Gospel.

the part that confuses me is the claiming that there is some special "way" that He is comes to us.... only IF a properly ordained priest says certain words over certain formulas of elements then Jesus is somehow "more" with those people??
or what???  I mean really... I am being serious... I just have never understood it.. 

Okay okay I can hear the groans and the replies-- Hey you ain't even a Pisky so it don't matter-- leave us alone-- this is how we do things and they do matter to us!

Just don't thump my head too hard. okay? I have had a hard time lately  :( 

I do understand the holiness of having ritual together-- of saying the prayers of the Eucharist--
of becoming aware of Jesus presence... of receiving..
of literally taking Jesus in-- and letting myself be transformed by His presence in my life...   

I am not proposing churches stop doing things the way they do them. And of course they have the right to order things the way they want to and the believers in those rules are entitled to their beliefs.

Artemis you made me laugh as I envisioned the danger of it all.. imagine.. Christians everywhere..joining  at tables every day of the week sharing Communion...celebrating ... my my my
we can't have that now!  Communion anarchy! lol...

I know I don't post much-- but wanted to share on this thread.       

Love to All- you are a good group of souls
Eak[/QUOTE]

No thumping, EAK.  Sorry to hear you've been through it lately; if you ever feel like talking, just shoot me an email.

One thing I do like about us all going to church together is that it's something we wouldn't ordinarily do; Communion is the one time we all get together in love, and forget all our differences and quarrels and problems and simply take a communal meal as if we were one.  So that's really nice, and I do appreciate the priest as a focal point for that kind of unity; I actually do understand the priest as in persona Christi at that moment.

My problem these days is that most Episcopal priests don't seem to understand it that way.  They claim that their position is merely that of "leader" of the Eucharist.  Well, if so - then what separates us?  It's not rocket science, reciting the Rite; we all know it pretty much by heart by now.  So why couldn't you, EAK, or I or anybody here be "leader" as well?  At that point, the consecration really does become nothing but "magic";  the priests have magic hands and magically conjure up Jesus.

Which is absurd, for Christians.  So if priests don't want to be in Persona Christi and graft us all together through that position into the Body of Christ - then there's really no point to the whole thing, and we might as well stay home and break bread together.  The movement in the Episcopal Church is to "get back to the early Church"; I'm just taking them literally and suggesting that we have house Eucharists.

What I would like, actually, is for blessed bread to be distributed at the end of the Eucharist.  That's "blessed, not consecrated" bread - and it was a custom of the church long ago, in many areas of Europe and Asia.  In England, the wardens brought the bread to be blessed and is was given out at the end so that people could have some sustenance during the week, both physical and spiritual.  Here's something about that in a pamphlet about the Sarum Use that you can read online:

[QUOTE]After the conclusion of the Solemn Parish Mass on Sundays, Blessed Bread (also called “Kirk-Loaf” or “Eulogia”), provided by the churchwardens, was blessed and distributed to the parishioners; this custom was not, however, unique to Sarum but was common in most countries of later medieval Europe.[/QUOTE]
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 10:35AM #38
artemis01
Posts: 925
(Anyway, nothing stops anybody from blessing bread like this anytime they wish.  "Do this in remembrance of me," was the request, if I recall correctly.   "Whenever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I."

But these things - in persona Christi, and the consecration, and many others - all had real meaning, and trying to elide that meaning in favor of a "21st Century approach" renders them absurd and magical and nothing more than superstition.)
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:16PM #39
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
Thank you Triqueta,  prayers are the most powerful tool that we have to work with.

I am on the mend, but a little more slowly than I would like.  I'm not really one for sitting around on my bum doing nothing ... that is what is really getting to me.  I guess there is one thing though, I am catching up on some of my reading.  I am also working on a Service of Prayer and Thanksgiving in September for a couple who will be married in a Civil ceremony the night before. 

Blessings
Bro. John
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2008 - 12:16PM #40
brjohnbc
Posts: 658
Thank you Triqueta,  prayers are the most powerful tool that we have to work with.

I am on the mend, but a little more slowly than I would like.  I'm not really one for sitting around on my bum doing nothing ... that is what is really getting to me.  I guess there is one thing though, I am catching up on some of my reading.  I am also working on a Service of Prayer and Thanksgiving in September for a couple who will be married in a Civil ceremony the night before. 

Blessings
Bro. John
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