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Switch to Forum Live View A Theological Conclusion: Is It Orthodox?
10 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2008 - 8:53PM #11
Posts: 5,164

Riesl1 wrote:


Just wanted to let you know that the way you explained this on this particular thread inspired a great conversation with my parents about pre-vatican 2. I didn't realize what the condition of the church was before te council, and how much it has changed in attitude, not just liturgy. I still think that we have taken some of the liturgical changes beyond where the council intended, but understand a bit more where you are coming from.


I The fact that you decided to talk with them (regardless of whether their experience is similar to mine and many others I know of my generation) demonstrates a rare openness. On the discussion board you also indicated that you would take some of the impressions of posters there to your pastor in order to perhaps help create a more welcoming image for your parish.

So I have been thinking - perhaps you should pray and reflect on something, perhaps a task from the Holy Spirit. You may be one of those rare people who can serve as a bridge - able to talk with and hear the different voices and experiences within the church. There is so much division these days and the people on different "sides" seldom sit down and talk with one another.. You have natural personal preferences too, but you also seem to understand that other Catholics might have different experiences and different views. Anyone who can be a bridge, anyone who might have at least a slight chance of helping the different groups better understand one another would perform an enormous service to his brothers and sisters.

I will pray for the Spirit to help you discern your path - just in case this is where you are being led.


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10 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 11:02PM #12
Posts: 2,220
That is an excellent post Wavering.  You made many good points.  It is sad thought that so many have left the Church.  We have the beauty of Christ's gift of Himself to us in the Eucharist and I wonder why people can so easily give this up. 

Peace - Mark
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10 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 6:56PM #13
Posts: 520
[QUOTE=wolflord;528820]Dear brothers and sisters,

I have been wrestling intellectually with trying to find a conclusion to how and why Christianity lost its overt Hebraic expression. This overt Hebraic expression now only subsists in Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Catholicism. I wanted to know if this was God's Will, and why He would have allowed this.

After praying about it and thinking over it I have reached a conclusion. This conclusion provides me with great comfort as I feel it is a good conclusion encompassing Biblical and historical (along with Church) teaching.

However I really want to make sure (as much as I can) that my conclusion is Orthodox. In my following conclusion I have CAPITALIZED key thoughts and/or words that are integral to my conclusion. I hope it is understandable.

My Conclusion:

Originally, after mankind fell from God, the Lord began His plan of saving the world. He found a man of faith, Abraham our father, and established a covenant with him and his descendents because of his faith. God then progressively revealed Himself to His Chosen ones, which consisted SOLELY of the Israelite people. The way in which He revealed Himself was Jewish in nature. In His Old Covenant He made it so if one wanted to be in full communion with God, then one MUST be a born Israelite or a Gentile convert to Judaism (embracing ALL of the Jewish traditions and customs).

When the "fullness of time came (Gal. 4:4)" Jesus (God in flesh), established a new Covenant. Since Convenants can never be revoked (only abrogated or ammended) Jesus took the Old Covenant and EXPANDED it to include ALL peoples, not just the Jews. This New Covenant abrogated the obligatory nature of the ceremonial customs of the Jews, but retained those things which were established from all time (Ten Commandments and such).

Jesus also took all the old Jewish rituals outlined in Torah and GAVE THEM FULFILLMENT in the sacraments of the Catholic Church, and to a lesser extent the traditions of Catholic Christianity.

In doing this, Our Lord (through His Apostles) established ONE set of true beliefs (orthodoxy) and ONE set of practice (orthopraxis). However, in order to partake of this one faith and practice one no longer needed to be a Jew, practice Torah, be circumcised or whatever. Also this ONE Faith and practice was (since it was stripped of intrisically ethnic concepts) flexible and maleable on non-essential levels.

As the Faith spread this ONE faith and ONE practice took on the cultural patterns of the peoples it encountered. However despite the variety of expressions the Faith and practice was always ONE.

Thus, God's people which originally consisted on the Jews, was expanded to include ALL mankind. The rituals and beliefs which God originally revealed to the Jews with an obligatory ethnic component, was abrogated and expanded to include a UNIVERSAL set of beliefs and practices that were able to be expressed according to the traditions of ALL mankind.

THUS (thanks for staying with me if you have) it is no longer obligatory to follow Jewish customs, BUT it is not to be condemned either.

Is this conclusion orthodox?

Thanks in advance!

-Antonios Ioannes[/QUOTE]

Yes.  I would say you have it correct.  I recommend the "Understanding the Scriptures" podcast.  There's a textbook for it that Dr. Scott Hahn wrote, but Carson has a wonderful podcast that dives in much deeper.  You can find it at

But there are 5 covenants in the Old Testament.   Each covenant gets larger and larger: marriage (adam and eve), a family (Noah and his family), a tribe (Abraham and his decendants), a nation (Moses and the nation of Israel), a national kingdom (David and the 12 Kingdoms of Isreal), a Universal Church with no national barriers (Jesus and His followers).  Then there is the expectation of the 2nd coming of Christ, the general ressurection of the dead, and the final judgment (which we all profess to believe in our creed).  Hahn speaks of this as the 7th covenant, where afterwards there are no divisions and the entire human family is reunited in a loving communion with God.

With 7, this makes it the perfect number.  In Hebrew, the same word for oath is seven.  Thus God bonds himself more fully to creation by creating seven progressive covenants with it.    Granted I think that's more of Hahn's observation of it.
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