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10 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2008 - 1:13AM #1
truthteacher
Posts: 8
I trust God with all my heart!  He created the heaven and the earth and every creature within them!  Countless worlds He has created!  He knows every difficulty and trial we have ever had and will ever have, as well as every joy!  He knows us far better than we know ourselves!  Why then should I not trust him?  What reason have I to revile against his chosen servants?  Every word which comes out of his chosen servants comes out because somebody needs to hear it, even if it is sometimes harsh.  And if I do find it harsh, then I must needs repent for "...the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." (1 Ne. 16:2)  God has set his standard before the world and, because I trust Him, I will support that standard through trial and tribulation.  Nothing will bring me or that standard down, for we are both built on a sure foundation, which is Jesus Christ, Son of the Father and Redeemer of the world!  This will I do because I trust Him, and I know that he will not betray that sacred trust!
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2008 - 5:45PM #2
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,242
Somebody is having a good day.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2008 - 7:46PM #3
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,785
Thank you “truthteacher” for your comments. I was reminded as I read your post followed by Bill’s insight that “TRUST” is one of the components of understanding. Where we trust first while we STRIVE to understand is also one of the reasons that we may have so many good days.

Jesse F.
*
“A man is led the way he wishes to follow.”
- Huna, Talmud: Makkot, 10b
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2008 - 7:46PM #4
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,785
Thank you “truthteacher” for your comments. I was reminded as I read your post followed by Bill’s insight that “TRUST” is one of the components of understanding. Where we trust first while we STRIVE to understand is also one of the reasons that we may have so many good days.

Jesse F.
*
“A man is led the way he wishes to follow.”
- Huna, Talmud: Makkot, 10b
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 2:10PM #5
truthteacher
Posts: 8
Your welcome :)
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 12:19AM #6
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=truthteacher;389309]
I trust God with all my heart!  .... What reason have I to revile against his chosen servants?  Every word which comes out of his chosen servants comes out because somebody needs to hear it, ....This will I do because I trust Him, and I know that he will not betray that sacred trust![/QUOTE]


GAIA:

Hi There Truthteacher -- and welcome!

Thank you for sharing something that is obviously very meaningful to you.


May i ask, what do you consider "reviling", please? 
I think that's important because i have seen the term used to refer to everything from insults and hate speech, to (respectful) questioning -- and i think there is an important distinction that should be made, there.....


You have certainly raised an important issue: that of trusting.   Trust -- like love -- is often seen as an idealistic value in itself  --
 
However, may i respectfully suggest that  WHO we trust, is at least as important as HOW or THAT we trust:  History is full of examples of people who paid terrible prices for trusting unwisely and indiscriminately.

It is well to trust GOD.  But you alluded to an interesting -- and i think very significant question:  what about trusting the Leaders of the Church? 

And in fact, we need not depend upon personal opinion, because they themselves have given us considerable counsel on this:  They have repeatedly told us to remember that they are only human, that -- as Joseph Smith himself said -- a prophet is only a prophet when he speaks as one, otherwise, he is quite human.  And as humans, they are subject to the very same flaws, weaknesses, mistakes and such that we are.


Here's a statement from Stephen E. Robinson, in his book, "Are Mormons Christians" -- in which he quotes JOseph Smith and elaborates on this very point:

  The Latter-day Saints allow that sometimes the living prophet speaks in his role as prophet and sometimes he simply states his own opinions. This distinction is no different than that made in some other Christian denominations. For example, even though Roman Catholics believe in "papal infallibility," they insist that the pope is infallible only in certain clearly defined circumstances -when he speaks ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals. Cannot the Latter-day Saints be allowed a similar distinction?

The LDS view was expressed succinctly by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself: [i] "I told them that a prophet was a prophet  only when he was acting as such ." --


(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. B. H. Roberts, 7 vols. (Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-51 ), 5:265.)

(Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991], 23.)




While it may be nice to think of them as always being trustworthy, the fact -- which they themselves have repeatedly stressed -- is that they are quite mortal, and that we have a RESPONSIBILITY to question them, to test their teachings against the promptings of the Holy Spirit.


               
Apostle George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus:

  "Do NOT, brethren,  put your trust in man though he be a  bishop, an apostle, or a president
If you do, they will fail you  at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;"
(Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in "Gospel Truth", 1:319)

Thus, it seems to me that LDS are to [b] TRUST God and the Holy Spirit ; and [u[ NOT "the arm of flesh" [/u]  -- even when that arm belongs to a leader.



Blessings -
~Gaia
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 2:06AM #7
truthteacher
Posts: 8
Astute observations Gaia.  While we need not fear to trust God, trusting another human, Prophet or not, is another matter.  If something a leader of this Church says does not sit well with you, then prayer on the matter is necessary.  Take and test their words against the Spirit, as you say.  The Holy Ghost will always testify of truth.  In my opinion however, the higher a position in the Church a person holds, the more likely he is to be trustworthy.  Remember that they are only in the position they are in because our Father wants them there.  As you said however, trust the Prophet more than the person. 

By revile I mean not trusting enough, whether severe or mild.

Trust is a delicate balance to maintain.  Trust too much and you are led away, but if you do not trust enough you will inevitabely seek after what appears to be greener pastures and the mists of darkness will close around you.
The iron rod, which is the word of God, will never move and thus can always be trusted.  Do not let go of the iron rod.

I will trust God unconditionally and his servants conditioned upon their own righteousness.
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 2:22PM #8
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=truthteacher;396056]Astute observations Gaia.  While we need not fear to trust God, trusting another human, Prophet or not, is another matter.  If something a leader of this Church says does not sit well with you, then prayer on the matter is necessary.  Take and test their words against the Spirit, as you say.  The Holy Ghost will always testify of truth.  In my opinion however, the higher a position in the Church a person holds, the more likely he is to be trustworthy.  Remember that they are only in the position they are in because our Father wants them there.  As you said however, trust the Prophet more than the person. 

By revile I mean not trusting enough, whether severe or mild.

Trust is a delicate balance to maintain.  Trust too much and you are led away, but if you do not trust enough you will inevitabely seek after what appears to be greener pastures and the mists of darkness will close around you.
The iron rod, which is the word of God, will never move and thus can always be trusted.  Do not let go of the iron rod.

I will trust God unconditionally and his servants conditioned upon their own righteousness.[/QUOTE]



GAIA:

Hi Again, TruthTeacher --

Thanks so much for your gracious reply.

I'm afraid it may seem like sour grapes then -- though please beleive that i certainly don't intend it that way -- when i question your last statement there --

Because "conditional upon their righteousness" puts *us*  in the position of judging the "righteousness" of another person -- never a good idea, and especially problematic when the other person happens to be a Priesthood holder *rueful smile*......

I think  the solution then is to avoid judging anyone's "righteousness", and just LISTEN for and OBEY the SPIRIT....leave the "judging" to God *smile*.....

Blessings --
~Gaia
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10 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 3:49PM #9
MysticWanderer
Posts: 1,334
[QUOTE=truthteacher;396056]I will trust God unconditionally and his servants conditioned upon their own righteousness.[/QUOTE]


One should be very cautious in judging anyone's righteousness!  We are repeatedly warned about judging others in scriptures and with good reason; at best we have only partial knowledge  or even ignorance of much that may be important in determing the nature of a person.  This matter is best left up to Tte Father and The Christ who are equipped to do this.  As far as the teachings of the Church or of any authority...if I find myself in question or in disagreement I resort to discussion with others whose wisodm and knowledge I respect and ultimately prayer and the Holy Spirit who will reveal all you need.  Remember God grants understanding to ALL who faithully ask.
"Not all who wander are lost" J.R.R.Tolkein
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. ~Anne Lamott
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
Friedrich von Schiller
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10 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2008 - 2:37AM #10
truthteacher
Posts: 8
I apologize for that last part.  That is not what I meant.  I am just as human as you.  I did not intend for it to come out as me judging them.  When they are not being righteous, and we cannot tell of ourselves whether their words drift from the truth, the Spirit will warn us.  Hence, I am not judging them, but I know if they are righteous or not.
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