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4 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 11:43PM #21
newway87
Posts: 25

Wow.  I'm having a flashback to the church I grew up in.  Lively, you are bringing back all sorts of reminiscences. Now let me try my feeble hand in the discussion.


In Matthew 28, Jesus finishes off the Great Commission by stating that He will always be with His disciples until the end of the age.  We are His disciples.  He (Jesus), is the Holy Trinity, the Three in One, the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit.  Ergo, I think it would be correct to surmise the Holy Spirit is manifest within us even today.


Also, if you go past Acts 2:38 and look at vs. 39, it says "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."  He is referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit--and I happen to believe that I fit into the last two categories mentioned. 


Finally, Campbellite, I love the mental image I get thinking of the Holy Spirit "spigot".  Makes me smile. =)

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2010 - 4:45PM #22
Livelysword
Posts: 15

Feb 3, 2010 -- 11:43PM, newway87 wrote:


Wow.  I'm having a flashback to the church I grew up in.  Lively, you are bringing back all sorts of reminiscences. Now let me try my feeble hand in the discussion.


In Matthew 28, Jesus finishes off the Great Commission by stating that He will always be with His disciples until the end of the age.  We are His disciples.  He (Jesus), is the Holy Trinity, the Three in One, the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit.  Ergo, I think it would be correct to surmise the Holy Spirit is manifest within us even today.


Also, if you go past Acts 2:38 and look at vs. 39, it says "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."  He is referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit--and I happen to believe that I fit into the last two categories mentioned. 


Finally, Campbellite, I love the mental image I get thinking of the Holy Spirit "spigot".  Makes me smile. =)




 


Lively:  When reading Matthew 28 Lo, I am with you until the end of the world... who is the You Jesus is speaking to?  To us directly today?  To his apostles he is speaking with?  Yes the later... his apostles...  He was indeed with them unto the end... even if that meant the end of the world...   If I am not mistaken, in  the first chapter of Acts... The disciples asked Jesus when the kingdom would be restored... Jesus said that was in the Father's power... and Only the Father knew when that would be...   Jesus also taught them the following... so it backs it up...


Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As far as the verse in acts 2:39... what it states is, this promise is for you... those whom Peter was speaking to... their children...  so if you were in the crowd, it would be you and your children... and then he states and to all that are afar off... he is speaking of the Gentiles... the Jews were nigh, but the Gentiles were afar off...


 


 


Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


 


so what we really have is two generations which is being spoken of... You and your children... and the gentiles which were afar off... even as many of them as God would call... but it still does not go beyond the point that God intended for the gifts to last... to have the gift, an apostle would still have had to lay hands upon you... the only exception was Cornelius and family, and that to show the Jews that the Gentiles were to be granted repentance unto life... and could be added to the fold... that God was breaking down the middle wall of Partion between Jews and Gentiles and opening up salvation to all man kind... and putting no difference between Jews and Gentiles... we both have access to the same God and stand on the same footing... being his children...  those who are in Christ are the called and chosen... not all Jews because they were Jews, were they chosen...  many more were disobedient then obedient to the faith...  many are called but few chosen...


 


There are not gifts being manifested today... that because it was God's purpose for the NT church until they came unto the knowledge of the Son of God...  it can be further summed up in Ephesians as follows.. .but feel free to read it all threw in its context as well..


This first portion tells us Paul received abundant relveation and wrote it so we could all read it and understand the mystery... that the church could read it and know the manifold mystery of God... and that is how we learn and understand anything of God today.. by his written word which men such as Paul and other apostles and prophets wrote for us to read... otherwise we have no direct communication with God at all... the gifts ceased as taught in 1Cor 13...


 


Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


 


the gifts were given and were only to last until they came unto the knowledge of the Son of God... Note the word Till...  the word has the impact of such as this... when we ask a baby sitter to watch our child till we get home... they are only obligated to watch them till such time as you come home...  its the same principle with the gifts.. they were to last till they came unto the knowledge of the Son of God... and the precediing chapter explains why... Paul received abundant of revelation where by when we read we can know the mystery... this same mystery of God and Christ...




Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


have you ever noticed, not one healer is at any of the hospitals healing people was they walk into the door?  They are all seen by doctors...  today we have quacks like Benny Hinn and others who are all just making mockery of such gifts... they have no gift at all...  they are simply liars and deceivers...  the gifts were to last for a time and then cease... as there would no longer be a need for them... as what they did was teach them about God... the same thing the written word does as well...  the miracles were for signs that what was being taught was from God... how do I know what Peter or Paul or Philip preached was from God?  They did miracles... they healed people...  God would not work with such if what they were preaching was not from God...  God confirmed their words with signs following... Mark 16:20


 


 


Have a great day... hope this is a help to you... I know this is probably something you have not heard of or been taught... but please take the time and read it and consider... if you are not able to accept it at this time... I can understand...  but you will have to deal with what apostles are around today laying hands upon people to give them the gift... by necessity, the gifts ended as they were given by the laying on of the apostles hands... no more apostles to lay on hands, no more gifts being given...


 


 


 


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2010 - 6:02PM #23
Campbellite
Posts: 2,068

What an... erm...interesting...interpretation of the scriptures. And it is an interpretation. I have no qualms whatsoever with the texts you quoted (although I generally prefer one that is a bit less than 400 years old. But that's fodder for another thread).


Those same texts can just as rightly, and I would submit, more rightly, be read to say that the gifts continue to this day. There is nothing in those texts which MUST be read to say that the gifts ever ceased.  You have already decided that they did, and then read that interpretation back into the Scriptures. (Google -> eisegesis)


I hope this helps you better understand the True Meaning™ of the Bible for today.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2010 - 7:53PM #24
newway87
Posts: 25



"have you ever noticed, not one healer is at any of the hospitals healing people was they walk into the door?  They are all seen by doctors... "


 


Yup, pretty much they're all seen by doctors.  Refresh me, wasn't Luke a physician?  And isn't Jesus called the Great Physician?  According to your interpretation, being a physician and using modern technology precludes one from manifesting one of God's miracles of healing.  I would suggest that quite possibly it could actually BE the Holy Spirit that enables some of our wonderful doctors today to do what they do.  Maybe it's even the Holy Ghost that inspired researchers in labs to find cures or vaccines for diseases like smallpox, polio, measles, etc.


I'm sure you've heard the story of the athiestic professor who dared his class that if God truly existed, He'd cause a piece of chalk to fall from his hand to the floor--and a young man in the classroom got up after a few moments of silence to go knock the professor down--and the chalk with him.  True or not, it points out a great possiblity--someone even as lowly as you or I could possibly be the instrument He chooses to do His will on earth.  I don't think the gift of the Holy Spirit was like a coupon with an expiration date.  Of course, my interpretation could just as easily be wrong as yours could be, we're both pitiful, fallible humans.  But I find I have MUCH more hope of a fulfilling walk with Christ if I know I can count on the Holy Spirit hanging around me, ready to pitch in--I can do nothing by myself, but "I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me."

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2010 - 5:09PM #25
Campbellite
Posts: 2,068

Feb 12, 2010 -- 7:53PM, newway87 wrote:


Refresh me, wasn't Luke a physician?  And isn't Jesus called the Great Physician?  According to your interpretation, being a physician and using modern technology precludes one from manifesting one of God's miracles of healing.  I would suggest that quite possibly it could actually BE the Holy Spirit that enables some of our wonderful doctors today to do what they do.  Maybe it's even the Holy Ghost that inspired researchers in labs to find cures or vaccines for diseases like smallpox, polio, measles, etc.




As a hospital chaplain (among other things) I have had the opportunity to get to know many physicians. Almost without exception, they will tell you that they do not heal. They treat the condition, they perform the surgery and prescribe the medicine. But they do not heal. They simply try to set up the right conditions for optimal healing to take place.


As one doctor said, "I just treat the patient, it is the Great Physician who does the healing."

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