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Switch to Forum Live View The Marks of the True Church
6 years ago  ::  May 21, 2008 - 1:02AM #71
spudette
Posts: 959
Thank you, Cal. I understand your beliefs better, and I agree with you on this point.
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6 years ago  ::  May 21, 2008 - 7:09AM #72
kepercayaan
Posts: 55
[QUOTE=spudette;513901]Thank you, Cal. I understand your beliefs better, and I agree with you on this point.[/QUOTE]

Spudette I guess that's why Cal is a Pastor and I'm not. I can't explain things that well.

But as Cal wrote:
[QUOTE=calknox;513901]"If God decides whom he will quicken because of something he sees or foresees in the elect, salvation is not of grace but of merit. However,

...by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [Eph. 2:8-9]".[/QUOTE]

What I meant to say all along is salvation is out of GRACE, NOT of works, all is from GOD alone. We don't "let" the spirit in GOD gives the spirit. We are predestined. 

I think that's one of the hardest things from our faith.
Men is 100% responsible for death.
GOD is 100% responsible for salvation.

Kepec.
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6 years ago  ::  May 22, 2008 - 12:39AM #73
smc93
Posts: 200
[QUOTE=greenponder;495852][QUOTE=smc93;478238]

SMC
Could you elaborate on what you mean by saying Pelagius was exonerated?
When you say "we are not stuck in 'falleness'", do you mean no one is stuck or after you believe you are no longer stuck?[/QUOTE]


Hi greenponder,

I've not got my historical theology books in hand at the moment, so am not able to elaborate upon Pelagius.  If memory serves, the so-called Pelagian heresy cannot be traced to Pelagius.  I think he was (purposefully) misrepresented during his life (political reasons...).  In that regard, since he was not guilty of that for which he was charged... the 'heresy' is called into question.

I believe no one is stuck.  The Resurrection of Jesus by God (basis for/of our faith) reverses the supposed conditions of a 'fall.'  Believing takes us as close as we can get to the throne room!  Otherwise all are in the Realm of God. 

Think of Vladivostok... way out there in the east of Russia.  She's still Russian... but ministry details in the Kremlin don't affect her life all that much or all that often... but she's still Russian.  She's Russian... but she's (thankful that she's!) not Muscovite!!  ;-)

All humanity (and all nature, the whole universe) has been put right with God, IMHFaith.  Believers enjoy that rightness up close and personal.  Believers are supposed to encourage others to believe this as well... so that more and more will come to enjoy the up close and personal love, grace, peace, mercy, etc. of God in Christ.

Does any of that resonate?  bless,  s
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6 years ago  ::  May 22, 2008 - 7:32AM #74
kepercayaan
Posts: 55
[QUOTE=smc93;516209]

I believe no one is stuck.  The Resurrection of Jesus by God (basis for/of our faith) reverses the supposed conditions of a 'fall.'  Believing takes us as close as we can get to the throne room!  Otherwise all are in the Realm of God.  [/QUOTE]

Just wondering SMC do you mean you belief that. Everyone will enter the Kingdom of heaven? Only some a little closer then others?
What about John 3:3 and 5

Can you tell me where I can find in the Bible that we already life in heaven?  [QUOTE=smc93;516209]
All humanity (and all nature, the whole universe) has been put right with God, IMHFaith.  [/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=smc93;516209]
Believers are supposed to encourage others to believe this as well... so that more and more will come to enjoy the up close and personal love, grace, peace, mercy, etc. of God in Christ.

Does any of that resonate?  bless,  s[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a LOT of Boasting and a little Grace.
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6 years ago  ::  May 24, 2008 - 2:31PM #75
smc93
Posts: 200
[QUOTE=kepercayaan;516475]Just wondering SMC do you mean you belief that. Everyone will enter the Kingdom of heaven? Only some a little closer then others?
What about John 3:3 and 5

Can you tell me where I can find in the Bible that we already life in heaven? 




Sounds like a LOT of Boasting and a little Grace.[/QUOTE]


Hi kepercayaan,

I really do mean that!  :-)  Do you think I would say it if I didn't mean it?


Everyone is in the Realm of God right now.  The Realm of God is present right now.  Everyone is in the Realm.  Some are faithful followers of the Realm's 'laws.'  Some are not.  Those who are not faithful are not 'out' of the Realm.  They simply aren't faithful.  The one's who know how to be faithful often fail to be faithful-- see the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.


We are not waiting to enter the Realm; we are waiting for those who do know how to be faithful to lead in such a way as to show the unfaithful ones how it is done.  [this is why every Christian in America and Britain (Bush and Blair's 'war') ought to be against the 'war' in Iraq; that is not how those in God's Realm would do it.]


"some closer than others"

Those who humbly follow the Law of the Realm naturally enjoy an intimacy with the LORD of the Realm, the Ruler of the Realm, the One Who Reigns in the Realm.  As we live this level of intimacy, it surely rubs off on folk the 'right' (righteousness and faithfulness) way.  They, too, will desire to have this intimacy in their lives; they will be slowly and surely transformed by God's love and intimacy... through the (agape) love and intimacy of the people of God-- those who are trying to remain faithful to God at all times, and humbly so.  Those who are closer aren't inordinately proud of themselves for being so; they know this is because of the Spirit's work in their lives.  They remain humble and confidently so, quietly confident, not ugly and brashly so.


"Can you tell me where I can find in the Bible that we already life in heaven?"

The records-- the Gospels-- say Jesus said it this way:  "the kingdom of God is within/among you."  Luke 17.21  (vv. 20-37 context.  Cf Matthew 24.1-29)  For a pretty good assessment of these verses, see Alan Culpepper's commentary in The New Interpreter's Bible, Vol IX, pp 333-334.


I said:  Believers are supposed to encourage others to believe this as well... so that more and more will come to enjoy the up close and personal love, grace, peace, mercy, etc. of God in Christ.  Does any of that resonate?

You said:  Sounds like a LOT of Boasting and a little Grace.

I find that what you said doesn't follow what I said!  :-(  Where is there any "boasting" in what I said?!?  Where is there "little" grace?!?  It doesn't follow, kepercayaan.  Sorry.  bless,  s
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6 years ago  ::  May 24, 2008 - 2:44PM #76
smc93
Posts: 200
p.s.  "what about John 3.3 & 5?"

Here's the portion of the chapter that is pertinent to the question you raise: 
"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.  He came to Jesus at night and said, Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no-one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him. 

In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. 

How can a man be born when he is old? Nicodemus asked. Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!   

Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.  Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.  You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

How to see/enter the Realm of God is enigmatic... just as surely as is the presence and work of the Spirit in the life of the faith community.  Jesus isn't excluding Nicodemus.  In fact, that he is mentioned by name is probably indicative of his inclusion in the faith community after the events of Good Friday/Easter Sunday.
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6 years ago  ::  May 24, 2008 - 11:06PM #77
spudette
Posts: 959
Originally Posted by kepercayaan 
Just wondering SMC do you mean you belief that. Everyone will enter the Kingdom of heaven? Only some a little closer then others?

Originally posted by smc93
I really do mean that! :-) Do you think I would say it if I didn't mean it?

I take it you believe that everyone will eventually be saved. That is not biblical. Those weho will be part of the second resurrection, the resurrection of damnation, will be thrown into the lake of fire, to be destroyed forever, along with Satan, his demons, sin, death and the grave.
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