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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 12:16AM #1
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220
I just read that this is the thread for liberal Catholics.  I had read in the past that the Archdiocese of St. Paul was considered quite progressive.  They have a new Archbishop who is very conservative.  He want to bring back Latin Masses and get rid of folk Masses.  The progressives are somewhat upset because they are out in the cold.  There was a church that had an annual prayer service welcoming people in town for the Pride parade.  The archbishop let it be know that he did not want the prayer service.  It seems that certain people are not welcome in the Church.  People had the prayer service outside the Church as they were not welcome in the Church.  They have a strong progressive group in this Archdiocese but I don't think they are going to get anywhere with the Archbishop as he seems to be a prejudiced man and I don't think they are going to change him.  Are there any liberal or progressive Catholics from Minnesota that would like to inform us or comment on this?  I find it intresting. 

Peace - Mareczku
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 10:29AM #2
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,136

Mareczku wrote:

I just read that this is the thread for liberal Catholics. I had read in the past that the Archdiocese of St. Paul was considered quite progressive. They have a new Archbishop who is very conservative. He want to bring back Latin Masses and get rid of folk Masses. The progressives are somewhat upset because they are out in the cold. There was a church that had an annual prayer service welcoming people in town for the Pride parade. The archbishop let it be know that he did not want the prayer service. It seems that certain people are not welcome in the Church. People had the prayer service outside the Church as they were not welcome in the Church. They have a strong progressive group in this Archdiocese but I don't think they are going to get anywhere with the Archbishop as he seems to be a prejudiced man and I don't think they are going to change him. Are there any liberal or progressive Catholics from Minnesota that would like to inform us or comment on this? I find it intresting.

Peace - Mareczku



I am not from Minnesota, and I am not personally familiar with what is going on there.

However, this does seem to be part of the pattern.  Progressives are being pushed out of the church; progressive theologians were silenced so often under JPII, by the CDF under Ratzinger, that few are willing tor even publish anymore, knowing what would happen.  There seems to be a concerted effort to shut off all intellectual inquiry, shut off intellectual freedom in Catholic universities, shut off all openness to the Spirit who may be trying to lead the church to  new understandings.  One commentator has observed that the church is not only turning back to the pre-Vatican II era, it is exhibiting a genuine "fortress mentality" - trying to wall itself off from the world, and retreat into its own domain, rather than engage the world. 

It seems that the church may be in danger in returning to a own self-created "dark ages" - an era in church history that we had thought was gone forever, as it should be.  But, sadly, that was not the case under JPII - he engaged the world on the surface, in his outward reach to people, while he closed windows and doors behind the scenes - with record numbers of "investigations" of theologians etc, strict crackdowns on free thought.  His "enforcer" was Ratzinger, and now that he is B16, he  is accelerating the trend to  return the church to the model of earlier centuries.

It's very sad.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 1:14PM #3
Tamayo
Posts: 236
[QUOTE=WaveringCC;776279]I am not from Minnesota, and I am not personally familiar with what is going on there.

However, this does seem to be part of the pattern.  Progressives are being pushed out of the church; progressive theologians were silenced so often under JPII, by the CDF under Ratzinger, that few are willing tor even publish anymore, knowing what would happen.  There seems to be a concerted effort to shut off all intellectual inquiry, shut off intellectual freedom in Catholic universities, shut off all openness to the Spirit who may be trying to lead the church to  new understandings.  One commentator has observed that the church is not only turning back to the pre-Vatican II era, it is exhibiting a genuine "fortress mentality" - trying to wall itself off from the world, and retreat into its own domain, rather than engage the world. 

It seems that the church may be in danger in returning to a own self-created "dark ages" - an era in church history that we had thought was gone forever, as it should be.  But, sadly, that was not the case under JPII - he engaged the world on the surface, in his outward reach to people, while he closed windows and doors behind the scenes - with record numbers of "investigations" of theologians etc, strict crackdowns on free thought.  His "enforcer" was Ratzinger, and now that he is B16, he  is accelerating the trend to  return the church to the model of earlier centuries.

It's very sad.[/QUOTE]

Religions that tend to get more power (or population) also tend to liberalize their views and eventually start losing members - case in point, 4 of the big 5 Protestant denominations. This move towards conservatism might be an effort to retain the members that they still can - they might be afraid of losing more if they liberalize. What usually happens is a church becomes more liberal, then the conservatives of that religion get fed up and form their own church where they can be with each other and preach their tension with the wider, more liberal society.

The RCC sounds like they're trying to avoid this by forcing liberals to branch off... start our own church... etc etc... the RCC will denounce it and will galvanize its followers against the new one. Thus the cycle repeats. I love how well sociologists have pegged religion!
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 1:29PM #4
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,136

Tamayo wrote:

Religions that tend to get more power (or population) also tend to liberalize their views and eventually start losing members - case in point, 4 of the big 5 Protestant denominations. This move towards conservatism might be an effort to retain the members that they still can - they might be afraid of losing more if they liberalize. What usually happens is a church becomes more liberal, then the conservatives of that religion get fed up and form their own church where they can be with each other and preach their tension with the wider, more liberal society.

The RCC sounds like they're trying to avoid this by forcing liberals to branch off... start our own church... etc etc... the RCC will denounce it and will galvanize its followers against the new one. Thus the cycle repeats. I love how well sociologists have pegged religion!



You may be right.  B16 has said that he expects the future church to be "smaller" but "purer" and certainly many of the neo-cons can hardly wait for that day!   

The swing to conservatism is seen  throughout the world's religions.  You have already mentioned what has happened in Protestantism.  As we know, the fundamentalist and conservative extremes in Islam, the Islamists, are becoming more vocal, more powerful, and,unfortunately, more dangerous, as this is the group that spawns the suicide terrorists.

There have been riots and murders of Christians in India recently, by Hindus.  There has long been violence between Hindus and Muslims there, but nowsome are attacking Christians, seeing them as a threat to their traditions and beliefs.

Even within Judaism there is a revival of sorts of the Orthodox, which is a relatively small group compared to Reform and Conservative Judaism.

I have been thinking about  this.  At my age, I have a hard time sometimes stepping into the shoes of the young, like you. I was raised in a very strict, black-and-white world, with very clear boundaries.  The era of mass communications had not yet arrived - our family didn't even have a TV until I was in elementary school, and there were three networks plus a few local stations.  No cable, no live feeds from everywhere in the world, no internet, no cell phones.  We weren't exposed to the swirling and, at times, chaotic and overwhelming ideas and thoughts of the world outside our own little narrow one of family, parish, and neighborhood.

It seems possible that at least one factor in all of this is that the pendulum swing went too far - from an overly constricted world to a no-holds-barred, anything goes world without any tangible standards or boundaries or anything else for the young to hold on to while they grow into the maturity needed to internalize one's own standards and beliefs.

If this is true, the move towards a neo-conservatism is an understandable reaction - it is one way to find some security and sureness and safety in a very confusing world, although perhaps not the "best" way.

I assume at some point a middle-ground may be found.  The church could be helpful here, but not if it retreats back too far, which it seems to be doing, unfortunately.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2008 - 9:02PM #5
Mareczku
Posts: 2,220
Lets keep this section alive Boo Bird friends.  It makes me wonder to hear people talk about a "smaller" and "purer"  Church.  Is that why so many dioceses are closing churches and schools?  I find it sad.

Peace - Mareczku
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2008 - 12:52AM #6
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Mareczku wrote:

Lets keep this section alive Boo Bird friends. It makes me wonder to hear people talk about a "smaller" and "purer" Church. Is that why so many dioceses are closing churches and schools? I find it sad.

Peace - Mareczku



Mark

Why here and not on the Catholic Issues board. That is a discussion board.
I'm curious!

Discuss Catholicim is my main board. Sometimes it is looney-tunes but some with very fine minds and a deep knowledge of the Faith post there.
I love the wags, too, the comic relief.

I can present my slightly left of center views there on Catholic Issues as well as here.
***************************************************************************************

I think the St. Stan's situation in St. Louis is an anomaly because it seemed to support itself. In my hometown one of the most beautiful churches was razed in the sixties to make way for new state buildings. It had long ceased to support itself because it was in the real slums which were also razed.
The brother of my mother's best friend, an Aunt to us from early years, was the assistant priest in that church. He had an old woody station wagon and brought some of the boys there to his family's summer home on a lake. Sisters of Mercy came there to swim, too, because one daughter was an RSM. No one complained when that church went. Others in poorer sections of town were also closed when there were few Catholics left to support them. Many were moving to the suburbs from those areas.

Parishes for the most part are supported by the parishioners. I don't think this is about a smaller, purer church. It's just a change of venue. In my hometown many Catholics were well-off. Not all to be sure. And industries that supported the less well-educated died: the New York Central repair yards, a huge meat-packing plant, etc. My hometown has a medical college, a law college, SUNY and a host of private colleges within a tri-city area: ST. Rose, Siena, Union College, Russel Sage, RPI, etc. Anyone there who qualifies and wants a college education can get it.

One fact does need to be looked at and that is the dimunition of funds to parishes and the diocese--mainly because of the abuse scandal, but also
because Catholics have gotten very choosey about how they donate. One of my pastors would not permit a Peter's Pence collection to be taken up long before the abuse scandal broke. He said the pope had enough money.
He had spent 10 years in Europe as an Air Force chaplain. ( His family was Polish and he brought great liturgy to my former parish and  it obtains still.) Later I learned that John Paul II had used Peter's Pence money to defend Catholic priests accused of abuse. Actually Peter's Pence is a discretionary fund to be used by the pope as he wishes. So many of us
thought it was a fund for the poor of the world.

Now I send one a check a year at least to my former pastor for the mission in Nicaragua where he served for two years. If I support any other mission drive it is designated for that mission.

Boo Birds emerged on the Catholic Issues board which I prefer to this one.

Ya know I luv ya

Peace and blessings

Jane.

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6 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 11:27PM #7
Tamayo
Posts: 236
[QUOTE=jane2;785639]One fact does need to be looked at and that is the dimunition of funds to parishes and the diocese--mainly because of the abuse scandal, but also
because Catholics have gotten very choosey about how they donate.

[/QUOTE]


It's funny... when I was small we didn't have a children's collection of any kind. But when I came back to my church a few years ago and witnessed it, it was a little shocking. To see the sheer THRILL on these kid's faces as they ran up and donated their few dollars worth of allowance to the church during Mass was amazing to me. They told the kids it was for the new school they stupidly decided to build (We have one of the best public school systems in the state - abstinence only education to boot) but to me it seemed more like conditioning children to donate to the church later in life when they internalize that thrill of the collection.

Come to think of it, I think they still do this children's collection even now that the school is built and running...
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