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7 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2008 - 12:10PM #41
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=JCOverseas;214621]
I don't post on these boards much, but I do feel the need to interject my two cents before this degenerates into a simple witch hunt--and I think that we are all capable of better than that. ...
       This practice of taking a McCarthy-style approach ("...are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist party?") with someone, just because they are well-versed in Church canon and writings but hold views that are not in accord with *current* doctrine, has been a disappointing one to watch.
[/QUOTE]



GAIA:

Yes, it certainly can be.

But i'd like to add that it's a somewhat recent development -- or rather, a recent worsening of a tendency that has often existed in groups -- especially religious groups -- including, i might add -- conservative Christianity.

And while Joseph Smith (founder and first president of the LDS Church) did have his own "brush" with a case of "McCarthy-itis"  (he was responsible for having "the Nauvoo Expositor" - a newspapaper that printed negative things about him -- destroyed) --

His VALUES were quite different; for example, he said this about a man who was criticized for teaching "false doctrine":

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-day Saints.    Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled.   It does not prove that a man is not a good man   because he errs in doctrine ."
(Contributor, Vol 4: Oct 1882-Sep 1883 p 172-173)

Thus, even if BackOnTrack's unnamed "they" in this thread did happen to "err" - and those who have disagreed with BackonTrack and others towing the "party line" have certainly provided SCRIPTURAL AND HISTORICAL EIVDENCE to support their views - -while BackonTrack and others have NOT --

Joseph Smith would NOT necessarily have faulted / labelled them -- as BackonTrack and others have- as being "puffed up", "self -serving", "jealous", etc.

And BoT -- if you DON"T think such qualities are "evil" or "nasty", i must question your judgement; i certainly think it's "evil" to deliberately LIE about  or misrepresent the truth -- don't you????    Hmm --  Perhaps that's why you don't seem to mind misrepresenting me.....


Another person deliberately labelled and persecuted by the Church for telling the TRUTH -- award-winning Historian D MIchael Quinn -- said this of  such LDS McCarthyism:

"Among a certain kind of Mormon, there is a tendency to believe that everything that is said or written about the Church must be glowingly positive and flattering, or else it's labelled 'anti-Mormon.'....
It is an odd situation when present General Authorities criticize historians for re-printing what previous General Authorities regarded not only as faith-promoting but as appropriate for Mormon youth and new converts.

...A more serious problem of Mormon history is involved in the implications of Boyd K. Packer's [and others, right here onB'Net!]  demand that historians demonstrate that "the hand of the Lord has been in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning to now." Every Mormon historian agrees with Ezra Taft Benson that "we must never forget that ours is a prophetic history," but there are serious problems in the assertion or implication that this prophetic history of Mormonism requires the "hand of the Lord" in *every* decision, statement and
action of the prophets"

[Editor's comment: If this was so we would have no changes in the principles and doctrines of the Gospel ......]

"...Central to the apparent demands of Elders Benson and Packer is the view that the official acts and pronouncements of the prophets are always the express will of God. This is the Mormon equivalent of the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility...

Elder Packer is not advocating Paul's dictum of milk before meat, but he demands that Mormon
historians provide *only*  a Church history diet of milk to Latter-day Saints of whatever experience... a diet of milk alone will stunt the growth of, if not kill, any child. 

... Why does the well-established and generally respected Mormon Church today need a  protective, defensive, paranoid approach to its history   that the *actually*  embattled earlier Saints did NOT employ? 

Ezra Taft Benson and Boyd K. Packer  [and BoT and others here]  want Church history to be as elementary as possible and as defensive   as possible.    This is Accommodation History for consumption by the weakest of the conceivably weak Saints, for the vilest of the conceivably vile anti-Mormons, and for the most impressionable of the world's sycophants...

The   Accommodation History advocated by Elders Benson and Packer and actually practised by some LDS writers is intended to protect the Saints, but actually disillusions them and makes them vulnerable ...

The tragic reality is that there have been occasions when Church leaders, teachers, and writers have not told the truth they knew about difficulties of the Mormon past, but have offered to the Saints instead  a mixture of platitudes, half-truths, omissions, and plausible denials...   

A so called "faith promoting" Church history which conceals controversies and difficulties of the Mormon past actually undermines the faith of the Latter-day Saints who eventually learn about the problem from other sources... "    


(D. Michael Quinn. Talk before the Mormon Historical Association. Brigham Young University. 4th November 1981)




This principle of thinking and speaking freely is CENTRAL and KEY to LDS doctrine, and is the FOUNDATION for the principle of Free Agency that the Chruch teaches is absolutely essential to mortal life and the Gospel:  and has often been defended -- even by such political "opposites"  as Apostle Hugh B Brown and Apostle Ezra T Benson:


Apostle Hugh B Brown:
"I should like to enter a plea for friendship, understanding, brotherhood and tolerance, all so badly needed in our confused and troubled world. In one of our Articles of Faith we claim for ourselves and freely accord to all men   the untrammeled right to worship God according to the dictates of conscience ." 

Improvement Era, 1908:
"But [the LDS Church] declares the inalienable rights of freedom of conscience and upholds the untrammeled agency of the individual in all matters of belief. In so far as the practice of anyone's faith and belief interferes with no other's freedom, "Mormonism" demands and defends individual liberty ." 


Then-Apostle Ezra T Benson, "Preaching the Princple of Freedom:"
" To Elder Benson, the battle for individual agency was all-important—and that which threatened freedom caught his wrath. He believed that the fight to preserve the God-given principle of agency and freedom was a matter of principle, not politics. Agency was central to the gospel. Should the children of God have untrammeled agency, or should they be coerced into following a predetermined path?  This question had precipitated the war in heaven, and it was still causing conflict throughout the world.

"The central issue in that council, then, was: Shall the children of God have untrammeled agency to choose the course they should follow, whether good or evil, or shall they be coerced and forced to be obedient?  . . . The war that began in heaven is not yet over. The conflict continues on the battlefield of mortality." 



So beleive me, JCOverseas --

While some here may seem to champion the notion of "Free Agency and How to Enforce It" --
The TRUTH is that such "McCarthy-ism"  is NOT AT ALL NOR IN THE LEAST consistent with the Gospel or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints  -- no matter how hard some may try to represent differently.


Blessings --
~Gaia
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2008 - 10:16PM #42
onefour1
Posts: 363
GAIA:

Well, actually, not necessarily -

A resurrected being AS A RESURRECTED, PEFECTED BEING, cannot "see" corruption;

Perhaps he must be "changed" -- as Brigham (and other GA's) taught, that:

Adam was an immortal being when he came on this earth; he had lived on an earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his
resurrection and his exaltation , and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. And had begotten all the spirits that was to come to this earth.


And Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celstial world . And when this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father, Adam and
Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression. Consequently they came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. And when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom, our earth, he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child . . .

. . . Adam and Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh, bones and sinews. But [B]upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal
beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life. . .

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Savior), who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit world, and came in the spriit to Mary and she conceived.) For when Adam and Eve got through with their work in this earth, they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world from whence they came. "
(Diary of L. John Nuttall, Feb. 7, 1877 --

NOTE: L John Nuttall was a private secretary for Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff, and was a member of the Council of Fifty who kept a detailed journal of the early history of the Church ; he was asked by President Brigham Young to write up this statement that was to become part of the "Veil Lecture" in the Temple, where it remained during the Presidencies of Brigham Young, John Taylor, Lorenzo Snow and Wilford Woodruff)




GAIA:

About Adam's supposed "death":

The scriptures (Deut. 34:1-8) also refer to the "death" of Moses, yet according to LDS doctrine he did NOT die, but was translated, in order to appear on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus:

(Robert J. Matthews, Behold the Messiah :

"Although it is recorded in Deuteronomy that Moses died and supposedly was buried by the hand of the Lord (Deut. 34:1-8), it is certain that he did not die but was translated. If it were not so he could not have appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration to lay on hands and bestow keys of the holy priesthood. Since this event took place before the resurrection of Jesus, and since Moses had lived thirteen centuries before Christ, it follows that in A.D. 33 Moses was a translated being, even as Elijah. Perhaps this is why "no man knoweth of his sepulchre" and why it was assumed that he "was buried by the hand of the Lord" in Moab (Deut. 34:5-6; Alma 45:19) for since he was translated, there was no place of burial."

(Robert J. Matthews, Behold the Messiah [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1994], 245.)


Thus, scripture has elsewhere reported the "death" of someone when in fact, we know they DID *NOT* DIE.

Well, I'm not sure about the bible being translated correctly but our modern scriptures were received first hand and they say nothing about Adam being resurrected or translated prior to Jesus' resurrection. In fact D&C 107 which came from the Lord directly to Joseph Smith tells us that Adam died in addition to the Lectures on Faith and the Bible.

[COLOR=blue]D&C 107: 53
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing

Yes Moses death was mysterious in the bible but Alma 45:19 tells us that they knew nothing about his death and that the Lord took Moses unto himself. This is similar to Gen 5:23 where it says that God took Enoch. However, In the case of Adam, his death has been referred to in both latter-day scripture as well as the bible and nothing states that he ever was taken by the Lord. D&C 107 56 tells us that prior to his death he was bowed down years and was still among his people. The timing of this event is 3 years prior to his death. How would they know this if they had no record of his death and this being recorded in modern scripture received first hand from the Lord? Thus we have modern revelation telling us that an event occurred 3 years prior to Adam's death which is a verification that he actually died.


[/COLOR]
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2008 - 10:17PM #43
onefour1
Posts: 363
GAIA:


There are seveal principles you need to understand, in order to put "Adam-God" in proper perspective.


1. The term "Elohim" is actually a plural which means literally "Gods" and it's frequently used that way in LDS theology; so it is a term which, precisely speaking, refers NOT to an individual, but to an OFFICE or to a plurality. It is also occasionally used in general LDS discussion to refer to God the Father.

I agree that the term "Elohim" is plural and could refer to multiple Gods or a group acting as one or in unison.



2. The Elohim (plural) go back and back, into etermities -- Heavenly Father and mOther have a Heavenly Fatehr and Mother, who have a Heavenly Father and mOther, .....etc, etc. --

I agree

As the Hymn "If you Could Hie to Kolob" says truly:

If you could hie to Kolob, In the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward, With that same speed to fly,
D'ye think that you could ever, Through all eternity, Find out the generation Where Gods began to be ?"
("If You Could Hie to Kolob" - - LDS Hymnal # 257)

In answer to the question in the hymn, I think you could find it out and that the Gods who are there know the answer and are capable of telling us.. Your point of there being more than one exhalted being has agreement with me.


So according to LDS doctrine, there are an innumerable number of "Grandfather Gods" and "Grandmother Goddesses" who could possibly "stand in" for each other, under various circumstances.

But do they stand in for each other? Are there any recorded revelations that verify this?


2. The terms "Elohim" "Michael-Adam", "Jehovah", and "Christ" are all PRIESTHOOD OFFICES , *not* proper names of people.

How do you know this?

This is important to keep straight because in LDS practice, one single person may hold many different Priesthood offices; or an office may be filled by different people at different times.

How do we know that Michael and Jehovah, in particular are offices?


So according to the Adam-God doctrine, the being we refer to as Heavenly Father participated in the Creation and in the early establishment of this earth, in MORE THAN ONE WAY/ context, and in more than one office --

It's a bit like saying,

"Brother Smith participated in General Conference in three different contexts:

1) as an individual (giving the opening prayer or sustaining the authorities),

2) as an Apostle, (giving an address),

and finally

3) as a father, (bringing his family and taking the baby out to be changed when necessary).


However, "father", "Apostle" and "Brother Smith" are all very *different* things, with different roles, responsibilities, obligations, authorities, power, etc.

It would be as wrong to say that "Father" is an apostle, as it would be to say that "father runs the church", or "apostle" changes diapers as part of his official responsibilities.

Thus, it is NOT (doctrinally) correct to say that "Adam is God," or that "LDS worship Adam" --

So Brigham and other GA's could very truthfully deny that "Adam is God" (as they did) withOUT negating the principles of the so-called "Adam-God" doctrine.

The Being who held the OFFICE of Adam, could hold the OFFICE of Elohim as well, or at different times and under various circumstances; or could even switch back and forth -- as many LDS men in small wards or branches do -- when they fuction in different Church positions, each with different roles, responsibilites, authorities, boundaries and limitations.


There are several more principles that help to explain A-G and put it into context; these are just a few; but i hope they help.

In lay terms, tell us how you feel the system works. From what I am hearing, I understand that you believe that the being who was married to Eve and was the first man on this earth whom we have called Adam, was an exhalted, resurrected being who worked out his salvation on another planet the same as we or Christ has done on this planet. That in his exalted state, he fathered spirit children. That he came to this earth and upon partaking of the forbidden fruit, fell from his exalted state and by doing so he was able to procreate with Eve the mortal bodies of his spirit children that he bore to Eve in his previous exalted state. When he became old around 930 years, he changed back from his mortal state to his exalted state again. Is this correct? Was he a Christ on his planet previously? Was this being kown as Adam translated or resurrected? Did he die? What exactly is the nature of his leaving this world and what do we call it? What was his role after his supposed death? I also understand that you are saying that his Father in heaven who gave birth to his spirit stood in as God when Adam was still in the garden in his innocence as a celetstial being. Please tell me if this is correct and what parts are not correct and what corrections need to be made. Also tell me how and who gave birth to Jesus Christ on this earth as well as in the heavens. Was this Jesus' first mortal probation? Was he previously exalted? Was the first mortal man on this earth, that we know as Adam, the Father of Jesus' body on this earth? Without quoting Brigham Young or others, I just want an explanation of how you understand the A-G to work.


Blessings --
~Gaia
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 2:25PM #44
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=onefour1;216612]
In lay terms, tell us how you feel the system works. From what I am hearing, I understand that you believe




GAIA:

Sorry to interrupt, but i want to make this very clear -- i am NOT speaking personal opinion or "beliefs"  here -- that is not my purpose. 
Rather, I am trying to outline  this doctrine, and offering some ideas on how to put it into context and understand what Brigham, John Taylor, Lorenzo Snow, Wilford Woodruff, Heber C Kimball, and other GA's taught on it.



ONEFOUR1:

that the being who was married to Eve and was the first man on this earth whom we have called Adam, was an exhalted, resurrected being who worked out his salvation on another planet the same as we or Christ has done on this planet.




GAIA:

Well, That's what Brigham Young (and others) said    *smile*.


  ONEFOUR:

That in his exalted state, he fathered spirit children. That he came to this earth and upon partaking of the forbidden fruit, fell from his exalted state and by doing so he was able to procreate with Eve the mortal bodies of his spirit children that he bore to Eve in his previous exalted state. When he became old around 930 years, he changed back from his mortal state to his exalted state again. Is this correct?




GAIA:

Again, that's what those General Authorities -- all sustained as "Prophets, Seers and Revelators" --  taught.


ONEFOUR:
Was he a Christ on his planet previously?




GAIA:

Good question --  let's look at another revelation of Joseph Smith's for that answer:


  "The first principle of truth and of the Gospel is to know for a certainty   the character of God, and that we may converse with Him the same as one man with another, and that   He once was a man like one of us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh   and like us. 

I will show it from the Bible. I wish I were in a suitable place to tell it. I wish I had the trump of an archangel. If I had the privilege, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. The scriptures inform us (Mark it, Brother Rigdon) that Jesus Christ said:--  What did Jesus say?--As the Father has power in Himself, even so has the Son power in himself. To do what?  Why, what the Father did.  That answer is obvious; even in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? "To lay down my life as my Father laid down His body that I might take it up again."     Do you believe it? If you don't believe it, you don't believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it and I defy all hell--all the learned wisdom and records and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it!

Here then is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God.  You have got to learn how to make yourselves Gods in order to save yourselves and be kings and priests to God,   the same as all Gods have done --by going from a small capacity to a great capacity, from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, until the resurrection of the dead, from exaltation to exaltation--till you are able to sit in everlasting burnings and everlasting power and glory as those who have gone before, sit enthroned. 
...."

(The King Follett Discourse: a Newly Amalgamated Text by Stan Larson Fn, BYU Studies, vol. 18 (1977-1978), Number 2 - Winter 1978 201.)


ONEFOUR1:

Was this being kown as Adam translated or resurrected? Did he die?  What exactly is the nature of his leaving this world and what do we call it? What was his role after his supposed death?




GAIA:

I think those prophets taught that in fact, he did not "die" -- at least, not as we normally understand the term.

He "returned whence He had come" --

NOw, we're told  in scripture that  the office and role of Adam will again be active  in this world's affairs -- For example, he will be at the Great Council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman, when he offers up the finished work of this Earth to Christ, who will in turn offer it up to HIs Father, Elohim --

And i think it's certainly possible that just as any individual might participate in "General Conference" in more than one way, office and role, the Beings involved in that  Great Council could participate, in more than one way, offce and role. 


ONEFOUR:

I also understand that you are saying that his Father in heaven who gave birth to his spirit stood in as God when Adam was still in the garden in his innocence as a celetstial being.




GAIA:
I think that's certainly POSSIBLE, It's one way to understand the accounts we're given; and it has the advantage of being *consistent*  with both scripture and what's taught as the "Adam-God" Doctrine.


ONEFOUR:

Also tell me how and who gave birth to Jesus Christ on this earth as well as in the heavens.




GAIA:

Well, LDS doctrine is that Heavenly Mother gave birth to the Spirit of Jesus, just as She gave birth to the spirits of all her and Heavenly FAther's children......
And Mary gave birth to his physical body.



ONEFOUR:
Was this Jesus' first mortal probation? Was he previously exalted?




GAIA:

Oh yes, all of that is pretty well established, even in the Adam-God doctrine -- Jesus was born to Mary on this earth, in his one and only physical incarnation --  The A-G doctrine makes no "changes" to any of that.  It only relates to Heavenly Father and Mother --

As i understand it, the Adam-God doctrine reveals to us a bit more detail and depth about what exalted beings actually DO -- what "exaltation" and "Eternal LIVES" actually consist of -- Haven't you ever wondered why the term  "Etermal   LIVES   (as it's stated in D&C 132:24, and 59, for example) is PLURAL?

Read D&C 132, especially  1-24.



ONEFOUR:
Was the first mortal man on this earth, that we know as Adam, the Father of Jesus' body on this earth? Without quoting Brigham Young or others, I just want an explanation of how you understand the A-G to work.


GAIA:

Ok, again, i must stress that i am NOT telling you what "i believe" - - I'm talking about a doctrine that was once taught in the Church, and trying to explain how i understand what was taught, ok?


Also, i would suggest that there are some other references/ resources that would help explain what this doctrine says, in much better detail, depth and clarity,  than i can possibly begin to attempt here  --

Two of the very best resources that i know on it, are as follows:

1.    " _ADAM-GOD: Doctrines Of The Restorations, Volume I_" by Craig L. Tholson
       Available through:
                      Publishment:  PO Box 440507, Aurora CO, 80044-0507,
                     OR                     PO. Box 151,      Payson, UT 84651.   --- COST $30 (includes shipping)


2.  "Strangers in Paradox" by Margaret and Paul Toscano


*     *    *


Now,  There are a few other things i have to share with you, but i think it's best to do so offlist -- If you'll send me your email address, i'll send you that info, ok?

Blessings --

Gaia_d@yahoo.com

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 5:10PM #45
BackonTrack
Posts: 41
Gaia, I would have to quit my job and family to keep up with the volume of your posts!!!
And yet, you haven't answered if you are a member of Sunstone or a similar group or associate with them which is a relevant question on topic.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 7:00PM #46
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459
Has anyone else noticed that this is a conversation even I haven't gotten involved in beyond a general informational post?

That should tell people something.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 7:27PM #47
moksha8088
Posts: 4,937

Ironhold wrote:

Has anyone else noticed that this is a conversation even I haven't gotten involved in beyond a general informational post?

That should tell people something.



Iron, what would the message be, that you would like to give people?

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:16PM #48
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459
[QUOTE=moksha8088;218840]Iron, what would the message be, that you would like to give people?[/QUOTE]

Maybe, just maybe...

this conversation isn't headed anywhere.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2008 - 12:50AM #49
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=BackonTrack;218515]Gaia, I would have to quit my job and family to keep up with the volume of your posts!!!




GAIA:

That's because i provide quotes and references to BACK UP my points, BoT.  I highly recommend that policy, btw *smile*.



BoT:
And yet, you haven't answered if you are a member of Sunstone or a similar group or associate with them which is a relevant question on topic.
[/QUOTE]



GAIA:

I thought JCOverseas already told you (in Message 34):

a)   that my actions were "hardly the actions of someone who is trolling for recruits"

and

b)  This practice of taking a McCarthy-style approach ("...are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist party?") " --

Is inappropriate   here. 


But to prove a point -- NO, i am not, nor have i ever been. 


Now that we've shot down your theories, and proven the weakness of such tactics, i hope we will *not* find them used again.

As Joseph Smith and many other LDS leaders have taught (and i quoted previously)  -- we ALL have the right to follow our consciences, wherever they may lead -- whether that includes Sunstone or anywhere else -- and LDS should be the LAST ones to find fault with anyone who does.


~Gaia

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2008 - 11:16PM #50
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459
[QUOTE=moksha8088;218840]Iron, what would the message be, that you would like to give people?[/QUOTE]

Maybe, just maybe...

this conversation isn't headed anywhere.
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