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Switch to Forum Live View Catholic and a Democrat?
6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 9:16PM #21
TemplarS
Posts: 6,262

etsryan wrote:

Helping reduce 'unwanted'/unplanned pregnancies, encouraging chastity is a good place to be/start/continue, right? Some of the 'how's' are problematic...some are workable/good.



Right!

These are things we can and should be doing every day; and by our everyday actions, we can convince others.

This is really a public education fight; until we win that fight, the political battleground is futile.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2008 - 12:49AM #22
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=Tmarie64;714819]I never said anyone could not speak their mind.  By all means, they really should speak up.
But, the church does not have to live my life, pay my bills, or raise my kids.  My husband and I have to do that.  And we vote the way we feel will best benefit our children.  If that happens to be the same as the church, fine, if not, that should be ok too.[/QUOTE]

YOU are the church - or part of it - if you are a baptised/registered member.  do you dislike what you belong to?  this is a Catholic board/thread, right?
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2008 - 12:51AM #23
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=TemplarS;714755]The way I see it, the Catholic Church has every right to speak its mind on the issues.    And it is reasonable that Catholics ought to consider what the Church says.

What is, to my mind, going too far is to hint that "if you do not vote in thus and so a way, you cannot be a good Catholic."  We all should vote our consciences, but in good faith, we can disagree about the balance of moral issues as reflected by the policies of either party.[/QUOTE]

and guidance is needed on such things as abortion, the common good, preferential option for the poor, social justice, economic justice, etc.  the church is duty bound to inform/teach and exhort citizens to exercise their right to vote in a morally responsible manner.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 29, 2008 - 12:55AM #24
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=Tmarie64;713941]Why would you think there can be no moral choices without religion?  That's just an asinine idea.
Morality is not about who is in what church.  It's about doing the right thing.  One does not have to have religion to do the right thing.
I MOST DEFINITELY do NOT want the Catholic church to have a say in government.  I have nightmares about the horror this country would become if it did.  Think of all the rights we'd lose if the Church ran things here....  I get chills just thinking about it.[/QUOTE]

the Kingdom of God or theocracy?  I'd say idolizing government of/by/for the people is a problem.  It may be the best way to go in mortality for now...but real unity and reverence for God is 'way better' to me than the (borderline?) chaos that juggling everybody's preferences winds up being.

Just how much do you hate the church anyway?  doesn't seem like you appreciate it enough.  just sayin
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31, 2008 - 9:41PM #25
RoMaIn
Posts: 1
[QUOTE=etsryan;713519]how can you say the church/your faith should have nothing to do with running government?  morality has to do with governance and faith has to do with morality does it not?  How can you/anyone check your faith at the government door - especially when voting your conscience is so crucial these days?  Is your faith something like a coat that you take off when it is convenient and thereby play the role of a secularist/humanist then? 

I realize fairness is called for, but stripping oneself of one's religious/moral identity is disengenuous to me.  I prefer folks enter the arena with all their true colors blazing and let ideas/values stand on their own merit.  Not this pussyfooting, walking on eggshells type of exchange.[/QUOTE]

You could have morality and still have no faith, as I learned from several good Atheist friends I have. Religion and your political beliefs are entirely different things, and I have to bring up Seperation of the Church and State, as it is entirely relevant to this issue.  Why shouldn't people bring and implement their faith in making laws or running the government?  Simple.  They exclude other people of different beliefs from our society.  Why should they be excluded from laws, even protection laws?  If religion was implemented in our government, America would be no different than Iran.  Another point is that many people do not agree with EVERYTHING that their church teaches or believes.  In fact, some faiths/religions advocate for their believers to disagree with their values, as it brings a different perspective into the picture, hence, revisions to the church's doctrines are made.  As a Catholic Democrat, I make my point here, as I was born into the faith and did not choose it in the first place.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2008 - 8:31PM #26
Tamayo
Posts: 236
I'd just like to point out to everyone here that Catholics are historically Democrats. In fact, before Roe v. Wade, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-Democrat Catholic! This one single issue has so much gravity that it has for some warped reason made many Catholics leave the party and join the other side. I'm an independent but I have to say, that's really, VERY sad.

Honestly the Church should never ever tell you who to vote for. No church should do that. Just as no government should tell you what religion to follow. I'd just as soon my church not speak a WORD about politics (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or any of that crap) just as I'd like my government to stay as far away from religion as humanly possible.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 12:48AM #27
rjak134
Posts: 320
[QUOTE=Tamayo;736048]I'd just like to point out to everyone here that Catholics are historically Democrats. In fact, before Roe v. Wade, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-Democrat Catholic! This one single issue has so much gravity that it has for some warped reason made many Catholics leave the party and join the other side. I'm an independent but I have to say, that's really, VERY sad.

Honestly the Church should never ever tell you who to vote for. No church should do that. Just as no government should tell you what religion to follow. I'd just as soon my church not speak a WORD about politics (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or any of that crap) just as I'd like my government to stay as far away from religion as humanly possible.[/QUOTE]


The thing that is really very sad is not that Catholics have, in large numbers, started voting for Republicans since Roe v. Wade.  The thing that is very sad is that the Democratic party is committed, with fierce tenacity, to the legalized slaughter of millions of babies.  I do not consider myself a single-issue voter - I fully realize that there are many issues of importance in every election.  However, all issues are not created equal.  It is simply irrational to suggest that any issue comes even close to the magnitude of abortion.  From the Catholic perspective (which, incidentally, one hardly needs to be Catholic to understand and accept), children in the womb are just that, children!  A candidate who said "I believe that we should legalize the mass slaughter of three year old kids" would not get a single vote.  Why do candidates who say the same thing, but change the age, get any?  I have yet to figure this out.

I would love to vote Democratic in most regards.  I am quite liberal on economic issues, health care, and favor a less aggressive foreign policy (I marched more than once against the Iraq war).  But it is really hard to vote that way when the Democratic party stands unequivocally for child slaughter. (I know they don't see it that way, but that's what it is)  As long as the Democratic party stands with such vigor in defense of abortion, I just can't see myself voting Democratic, unless it's a seat where abortion would be a non-issue, the Republican is also anti-life, or the Democratic candidate is that rarest of all birds, the pro-life Democratic politician.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 9:08AM #28
malanga
Posts: 626
[QUOTE=Tamayo;736048]
Honestly the Church should never ever tell you who to vote for. No church should do that. Just as no government should tell you what religion to follow. I'd just as soon my church not speak a WORD about politics (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or any of that crap) just as I'd like my government to stay as far away from religion as humanly possible.[/QUOTE]

A very good point!  How eager would the clergy be to government agencies telling them how to run their churches, what to believe and who to vote for?
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 12:48AM #29
rjak134
Posts: 320
[QUOTE=Tamayo;736048]I'd just like to point out to everyone here that Catholics are historically Democrats. In fact, before Roe v. Wade, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-Democrat Catholic! This one single issue has so much gravity that it has for some warped reason made many Catholics leave the party and join the other side. I'm an independent but I have to say, that's really, VERY sad.

Honestly the Church should never ever tell you who to vote for. No church should do that. Just as no government should tell you what religion to follow. I'd just as soon my church not speak a WORD about politics (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or any of that crap) just as I'd like my government to stay as far away from religion as humanly possible.[/QUOTE]


The thing that is really very sad is not that Catholics have, in large numbers, started voting for Republicans since Roe v. Wade.  The thing that is very sad is that the Democratic party is committed, with fierce tenacity, to the legalized slaughter of millions of babies.  I do not consider myself a single-issue voter - I fully realize that there are many issues of importance in every election.  However, all issues are not created equal.  It is simply irrational to suggest that any issue comes even close to the magnitude of abortion.  From the Catholic perspective (which, incidentally, one hardly needs to be Catholic to understand and accept), children in the womb are just that, children!  A candidate who said "I believe that we should legalize the mass slaughter of three year old kids" would not get a single vote.  Why do candidates who say the same thing, but change the age, get any?  I have yet to figure this out.

I would love to vote Democratic in most regards.  I am quite liberal on economic issues, health care, and favor a less aggressive foreign policy (I marched more than once against the Iraq war).  But it is really hard to vote that way when the Democratic party stands unequivocally for child slaughter. (I know they don't see it that way, but that's what it is)  As long as the Democratic party stands with such vigor in defense of abortion, I just can't see myself voting Democratic, unless it's a seat where abortion would be a non-issue, the Republican is also anti-life, or the Democratic candidate is that rarest of all birds, the pro-life Democratic politician.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 9:08AM #30
malanga
Posts: 626
[QUOTE=Tamayo;736048]
Honestly the Church should never ever tell you who to vote for. No church should do that. Just as no government should tell you what religion to follow. I'd just as soon my church not speak a WORD about politics (abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or any of that crap) just as I'd like my government to stay as far away from religion as humanly possible.[/QUOTE]

A very good point!  How eager would the clergy be to government agencies telling them how to run their churches, what to believe and who to vote for?
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