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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 1:02PM #11
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=Tmarie64;697560]I've never known any republican Catholics.
My church has NOTHING to do with my choices for government, and should have nothing to do with running it.[/QUOTE]

how can you say the church/your faith should have nothing to do with running government?  morality has to do with governance and faith has to do with morality does it not?  How can you/anyone check your faith at the government door - especially when voting your conscience is so crucial these days?  Is your faith something like a coat that you take off when it is convenient and thereby play the role of a secularist/humanist then? 

I realize fairness is called for, but stripping oneself of one's religious/moral identity is disengenuous to me.  I prefer folks enter the arena with all their true colors blazing and let ideas/values stand on their own merit.  Not this pussyfooting, walking on eggshells type of exchange.

If you don't vote YOUR conscience, no one else will or can do it for you.  If everyone did this, a more accurate representation of everyone would occur.  Instead of worrying what someone else whose opinion differs from your own thinks, let them vote their way and you vote yours.  I believe too many folks are compromising their true beliefs, thinking they are being more fair to others when actually they are hurting themselves and being fair to no one.  It's a cop out not to bring all your values to the election table imhho.  Vote with courage, determination.  On the way there, search your heart and soul for where YOU really stand and don't worry about the other person.  They have their vote. 

Also, I believe in working for/toward consensus, but I don't see enough effort being made.  Seems some give up trying when the going gets tough.  I say press on toward the goal.  And settle only when agreement is reached or something very close to it.  For instance:  most on all sides agree that 'unplanned pregnancies' could be avoided better, thereby decreasing the 'need' for abortions.  Addressing this better is a form of Upstream Solutions - going to the source rather than dealing with aftermath (issues at the delta).

I hope you get my drift.  Please don't interpret separation of church and state to mean that the church has no business commenting on issues of the day/politics.  It is actually meant to keep government out of the sanctuary so folks are free to believe as they see fit without government thought/belief police dictating such.  Seems like many have the whole separation of church/state bass ackwards these days.  Seems like some want government to trump freedom of religion.  Scary/nasty.  No thanks.

Also, writing in Jesus makes your vote a prayer and how can you go wrong with that?  Don't vote for the lesser of two evils.  Vote for the greatest good.  There's always a choice for that.  You can always write in yourself if you prefer.  I trust God has His hand on this country and the whole world.  I appreciate the right to vote, but the right to prayworship is more powerful to me.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 1:25PM #12
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=BrookeC;696183]Can a person not betray their Catholic faith and support the democratic candidate for president at the same time?  I am currently not a Catholic yet but I am about to start RCIA classes soon.  I just wondered does being a Catholic mean that I must vote republican from now on or can I disagree with some stances that the democratic candidate has, mainly his view of abortion, and still support him?  I am struggling with this issue.[/QUOTE]

There are Democrats who are promoting the cause of life, but to me the Democratic party as a whole has been too silent for too long regarding "life" issues.  I hurt when 'pro choice' Democrats receive Holy Communion at Mass even though they have been asked to refrain by pastors/bishops, etc.  This smacks of rebellion and 'I can do whatever I want to' (and suffer no bad consequences) attitude.  Like a small child who thinks they know the score, but don't perceive the dangers around them.  I believe God sees some this way.  I believe there is a grave injustice going on regarding this I don't have to listen to authority or others in my (faith) community who are sincerely concerned.  I do not believe God is pleased with this situation.  I know Jesus wants us to receive him in the Blessed Sacrament, but He also prefers repentance, a clean heart.  How can a politician claim to be compassionate and loving toward one's neighbor when that neighbor is being yanked out of his/her mother's womb and/or poisoned while inside there?  Also, when that neighbor is being sold a 'bill of goods' by an agency that doesn't totally support a woman who is pregnant.  The blindness is stupifying.  Church officials have asked those who publicly stand for ideology/opinions that are contrary to the Gospel/church teaching to refrain from receiving Holy Communion.  I don' t think this is too much to ask.  They are not being officially excommunicated.  They are not being asked not to come to Mass.  They are being asked to stop having one foot in one camp and one in the other - to not serve two masters.  Doublemindedness.  Dissent in the church is an issue.  Making your dissent public/influencing others especially using a government office is not the way to affect change in the church.  Receiving Holy Communion is a witness to belief in the Gospel and the teachings of Christ through the church.  To do so and boldly state that you don't believe such things is insulting and foolish.  It may be better to switch churches and avoid total hypocrisy than keep saying "I'm Catholic", but not embrace what that entails.  Mean what you say/say what you mean/walk the talk.  No wonder many 'Samaritan' (salty? you are salt of the earth and what if salt loses its flavor...) type Catholics are seeking to separate from what they consider more 'watered down' Catholicism, cafeteria Catholicism, 'convertible Catholicism' (wishy washy mush?).  Perhaps it is a question of faith maturity.  I know I get tired of double agents myself.  I say 'make up your mind'.  Decide for yourself whom you will serve.  As for me and my house - we will serve the Lord.  Unfortunately, some may believe they are serving Him when in fact they are following a false gospel and idolizing "choice".  Also, trying to encourage folks to stay chaste these days - not 'fool around' sexually until they are married and to accept children in their marraige seems to be falling on deaf ears.  This would reduce a lot of unplanned pregnancies I believe.  Discussing and teaching self control is laughed at - sadly.  Sexual activity is likened by some to breathing - have to do it or you'll be a sub human, die, be a laughingstock, or be mentally ill/considered mentally ill (Yes, I've heard that said by some!).  All kinds of untruth running rampant. 

Let everything stand on two or three witnesses.  Seek confirmation.  Discernment.  Gifts of the Holy Spirit.  www.nsc-chariscenter.org

I guess I prefer to consider myself an independent until a party platform actually espouses Catholic teaching totally.  Being an 'independent' isn't a sin.  Two party dominance/polarity won't subside unless enough folks join together to change it.  It would be okay - possibly better - to have three or four 'viable' candidates for each office instead of having to half-heartedly side with one of two choices instead. 

i am being reminded of G. K. Chesterton right now and I assume this may be a prompting from God, so I will provide a link to www.chesterton.org    This gifted author, London newspaper columnist, public speaker, 'blast from the past' may help inform us about politics, faith, public life, conscience, etc.  "The Apostle of Common Sense" some call him...  indeed.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 1:58PM #13
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
Bottom line for me is that personal freedom/choice will never trump the right to life (from conception until 'natural' death) in the moral scheme of things.  The argument of freedom to choose (even evil) will not hold water on judgment day imhho.  It is about whether we choose and do the right thing or not.  Not whether we exercised our freedom to choose or decided 'not to choose' and 'go with the flow' even though the flow is on the way to perdition...  doing the right thing can take more effort - like getting upstream requires paddling.  It's about  how we use our freewill and whether we lay down our lives for others.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 2:00PM #14
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=skittlez;696852]may i suggest reading the book "Jesus For President", i promise its not as cheesy as it sounds.[/QUOTE]

Voting in the kingdom of God...

Who is the author...is there a link to this book?

is this the one you mean?

http://www.jesusforpresident.org/

http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US … =Zondervan

I've saw a sign:  Vote for Jesus.  He keeps His promises.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 2:11PM #15
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin … &type=lgns
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:29PM #16
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277
Why would you think there can be no moral choices without religion?  That's just an asinine idea.
Morality is not about who is in what church.  It's about doing the right thing.  One does not have to have religion to do the right thing.
I MOST DEFINITELY do NOT want the Catholic church to have a say in government.  I have nightmares about the horror this country would become if it did.  Think of all the rights we'd lose if the Church ran things here....  I get chills just thinking about it.
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 9:15PM #17
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249
The way I see it, the Catholic Church has every right to speak its mind on the issues.    And it is reasonable that Catholics ought to consider what the Church says.

What is, to my mind, going too far is to hint that "if you do not vote in thus and so a way, you cannot be a good Catholic."  We all should vote our consciences, but in good faith, we can disagree about the balance of moral issues as reflected by the policies of either party.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 9:45PM #18
Tmarie64
Posts: 5,277
I never said anyone could not speak their mind.  By all means, they really should speak up.
But, the church does not have to live my life, pay my bills, or raise my kids.  My husband and I have to do that.  And we vote the way we feel will best benefit our children.  If that happens to be the same as the church, fine, if not, that should be ok too.
James Thurber - "It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers."
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2008 - 9:15AM #19
malanga
Posts: 626
[QUOTE=TemplarS;714755]The way I see it, the Catholic Church has every right to speak its mind on the issues.    And it is reasonable that Catholics ought to consider what the Church says.

What is, to my mind, going too far is to hint that "if you do not vote in thus and so a way, you cannot be a good Catholic."  We all should vote our consciences, but in good faith, we can disagree about the balance of moral issues as reflected by the policies of either party.[/QUOTE]

Well said TemplarS.   You can say in a few words what takes me a paragraph!  I too get quite annoyed by the "Ivory Tower, High Horse" Catholics who look down on others who do not agree 100% with the clergy.  We each have a conscience, which in my opinion has a higher authority than any clergyman or bishop.  Our conscience is, IMHO, closer linked to the Holy Spirit than what someone else tells us to believe or do.  I hate abortions, and I would never support or encourage anyone to have one.  Yet I am against the repeal of Roe v. Wade because that will not fix the problem.  Abortions took place before, and would still take place if it were repealed.  What we need to change is the mindset of the people, not change or pass new laws.  Now, according to some people here on this board, this would make me a "Bad Catholic,"  but I do not answer to those people.  I look to what I think God would want me to do, and I try to do that.  Same thing for who I vote for.  I love the Church and truly respect the clergy, but I will not tolerate when they overstep themselves and try to tell me who to vote for.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 12:15AM #20
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
Lukewarmness is not good for faith or politics or the country.  When something like abortion is legalized and tax money gets spent on it, the game is on and we are all involved/compromised - like it or not.  I am not saying conscience is not important.  I believe obedience is also.  Many years ago a person on a bus i was riding asked me what the biggest problem in/with the Catholic church was today.  I said we are having an identity crisis and his jaw hit the floor and he said:  I never thought I would ever hear someone admit it.  I understand why some/many do not have respect for clergy, but many clergy are worthy of respect and love.  Many have given their entire lives to God and the church and truly care about others.  Oh that we Catholics would sit down with one another more and bridge our own gaps more and then present that unity to the world.  I am disappointed that some Catholics don't see through the smokescreen that is going on.  It seems that many hearts are hardened toward the unborn.  Minimizing their worth.  Assuming no soul or value or 'personhood'.  I don't believe that a U.S./ world legal definition is necessary to God.  Anyway, 'can we talk'?  Why aren't we on the same page?  Cohesiveness, congruity, unity.  We can use these.  Diversity is good/nice, but continuity is needed.  Agreeing to disagree isn't win win to me.  Helping reduce 'unwanted'/unplanned pregnancies, encouraging chastity is a good place to be/start/continue, right?  Some of the 'how's' are problematic...some are workable/good.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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