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Switch to Forum Live View Divine Mercy Transformation & Apology
5 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2008 - 8:35AM #11
danman916
Posts: 2,557
I am most certain that you are sincere.


Have you looked at the catechism on the subject of the fall and Original sin.
It is in paragraphs 385 to 421
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm


Also, there is another article that had a lot of influence in my formation that talks about the relationship of the fall, original sin, the cross, and our redemption.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

This article may help you to understand how original sin is tied to the cross and is related to the resurrection of the body (which is related to what we celebrate today in the feast of Mary's Assumption).
It is an Eastern Orthodox resource. And except for one polemical comment (that I think is inaccurate) about Catholicism, it is in agreement with Catholic belief.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 18, 2008 - 10:13AM #12
Logismos
Posts: 36
[QUOTE=danman916;692718]I am most certain that you are sincere.


Have you looked at the catechism on the subject of the fall and Original sin.
It is in paragraphs 385 to 421
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm[/QUOTE]

"Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness."

That's the key point where I began to get lost. Does that imply that they are incapable of choosing good?

"All men are implicated in Adam's sin."

This is where I became a bit more confused. Does this mean that we carry the guilt of Adam's sin? I understand that we suffer from the consequences of others' sins (in this case, death, and by extension, the inclination to sin), but are we responsible for their sins?

The answer was given:
"Original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"

This seems to agree with St. John Cassian as well as St. Augustine.


[QUOTE]Also, there is another article that had a lot of influence in my formation that talks about the relationship of the fall, original sin, the cross, and our redemption.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

This article may help you to understand how original sin is tied to the cross and is related to the resurrection of the body (which is related to what we celebrate today in the feast of Mary's Assumption).
It is an Eastern Orthodox resource. And except for one polemical comment (that I think is inaccurate) about Catholicism, it is in agreement with Catholic belief.[/QUOTE]

This statement stands out: "The first man was not deified at the time of his creation, but he was created for deification, for union with God."

It seems that Catholicism and Orthodoxy don't disagree on as much I had previously thought.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 18, 2008 - 1:23PM #13
danman916
Posts: 2,557
[QUOTE=Logismos;698334]"Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness."
That's the key point where I began to get lost. Does that imply that they are incapable of choosing good?


No, it means that they lost communion with God.

"All men are implicated in Adam's sin."
This is where I became a bit more confused. Does this mean that we carry the guilt of Adam's sin? I understand that we suffer from the consequences of others' sins (in this case, death, and by extension, the inclination to sin), but are we responsible for their sins?


We are not personally responsible for Adam's sin, but we are implicated in that we all share in human nature. Since it is our nature that has fallen, we riase and fall as a group. We are responsible only as much as we are part of the fallen group, but the responsibility is not due to your action


The answer was given:
"Original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"


This is what the Catechism teaches, and I believe that it puts to rest some of the confusing legal words that have been present that mis-represent Augustine's teachings.


This statement stands out: "The first man was not deified at the time of his creation, but he was created for deification, for union with God."


That is correct. Adam and Eve were on a journey toward the participation in the divine nature. They had not yet finished this journey. That is why our end is even greater than merely the garden. The garden is innocence but was not yet complete. Adam and Eve were destined to be deified, but they lost that through their sin, and because they lost that, we lost it too because we are their descendents.

We aren't guilty of losing it, but we inherited that loss. In a way, one could think of this as a child born addicted to drugs from the mother. The baby didn't take the drugs, so are not guilty of that, but they are born addicted and are very sick in need of healing. Original sin is sort of the same way.

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