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Switch to Forum Live View Bearification of Cardianl Newman
9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 1:40AM #1
jane2
Posts: 14,295
It seems Rome is going forward with the Bearification of John Henry Cardianl Newman, a great favorite of mine.

Newman, with fine reasoning, was at great odds with Pius IX about so called modernism and papal infallibility. He was a fine propenent of sensus fidelium in the broader sense, with which I agree.

The Benedict papacy is a back and forth enigma. It fascinates me.

Any thoughts on this development or on Benedict?

(ps. most of the threads here have been done to death ;))................

Do your own homework.......info is so easy to find.....:)
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 1:43AM #2
jane2
Posts: 14,295
Bearification shoud be Beatification--too hilarious!! Gotta luv the irony.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 3:48AM #3
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,164

jane2 wrote:

Bearification shoud be Beatification--too hilarious!! Gotta luv the irony.

I

LOL!

You're right (the same old topics....)

I am pleased that Newman is being recognized and honored. (even though I share your opinion, expressed on the Discussion board, that the whole saintmaking business is a bit dubious at times)

I read somewhere that John XXIII called Vatican II "Newman's Council" for finally incorporating the ideas into official church thinking that got him into hot water late in his life, when Rome was "investigating" him for years - the notion that the HS speaks through the whole church, through the people of God.

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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 8:55AM #4
rjak134
Posts: 320
[QUOTE=jane2;630413]It seems Rome is going forward with the Bearification of John Henry Cardianl Newman, a great favorite of mine.

Newman, with fine reasoning, was at great odds with Pius IX about so called modernism and papal infallibility. He was a fine propenent of sensus fidelium in the broader sense, with which I agree.

The Benedict papacy is a back and forth enigma. It fascinates me.

Any thoughts on this development or on Benedict?

(ps. most of the threads here have been done to death ;))................

Do your own homework.......info is so easy to find.....:)[/QUOTE]

It should be noted, in terms of Newman & infallibility that, although before Vatican I Newman didn't want to see Papal Infallibility defined as dogma, he did accept it as the decision of the Council.  I believe it was in this context that he delivered one of his more memorable lines, one which really shuts down dissenters trying to use him as a model: "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 10:07AM #5
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,164

rjak134 wrote:

It should be noted, in terms of Newman & infallibility that, although before Vatican I Newman didn't want to see Papal Infallibility defined as dogma, he did accept it as the decision of the Council. I believe it was in this context that he delivered one of his more memorable lines, one which really shuts down dissenters trying to use him as a model: "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."



Another memorable line from Newman:

I add one remark. Certainly, if I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts, (which indeed does not seem quite the thing) I shall drink—to the Pope, if you please,—still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.

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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 11:58AM #6
Jwbidwell
Posts: 173

rjak134 wrote:

It should be noted, in terms of Newman & infallibility that, although before Vatican I Newman didn't want to see Papal Infallibility defined as dogma, he did accept it as the decision of the Council. I believe it was in this context that he delivered one of his more memorable lines, one which really shuts down dissenters trying to use him as a model: "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."



WaveringCC wrote:

Another memorable line from Newman:

I add one remark. Certainly, if I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts, (which indeed does not seem quite the thing) I shall drink—to the Pope, if you please,—still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.



Does this really have to be another round of "Catholic Culture Wars"? Perhaps he was a loyal son of Holy Mother Church AND someone not afraid to think for himself. Last I checked, complexity wasn't a sin. Instead of fighting over who gets to use him as a club with which to beat the others, I would truly appreciate hearing why you think Newman is a saint, as I have only a vague knowledge of the man.

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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 12:20PM #7
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,164

jwbidwell wrote:

Does this really have to be another round of "Catholic Culture Wars"? Perhaps he was a loyal son of Holy Mother Church AND someone not afraid to think for himself. Last I checked, complexity wasn't a sin. Instead of fighting over who gets to use him as a club with which to beat the others, I would truly appreciate hearing why you think Newman is a saint, as I have only a vague knowledge of the man.



My definition of "saint" is rather broad, and, if they'd leave it to me, no miracles would be required!

I don't know if he is a "saint" or not.  I don't really care. I am glad that he is being recognized for his contributions though.

His ideas were very important to Vatican II, a validation after he had been kicked out of his job editing the UK's main Catholic journal and investigated by Rome.  He didn't back down from his ideas, so I admire him for that.  Some call V-II "Newman's Council"

But, I know little about his personal life. There is a thread on the Discussion board speculating on one aspect of that.  It doesn't concern me much.

He was a convert from Anglicanism, and a "thought-leader".

I tend to want to canonize people like Ghandi.  One of my favorite spiritual writers is Eknath Easwaren, a Hindu prof. of English Lit at CAL in the 1960s.  I have about a dozen of his books - he writes as a spiritual teacher for all, not simply Hindis, and uses many Christian texts as well as Hindu and Buddhist (and Jewish and Sufi!  He points out that the great spiritual teachers of each of the great world religions teach similar things).  (CAL asked him to teach the first class on meditation that they ever offered - this WAS the 60s!) 

.   He tells this story about Ghandi (he wrote a book using a variation as a the title - Your Life is Your Message).  I often give this little book to new graduates (and few ever read it!  But, maybe someday they will dig it out).

Ghandi maintained silence one day/week.  Once while traveling a reporter stopped him and asked for a message.  Without speaking, Ghandi wrote this - "My life is my message."

I think of Ghandi as being a "saint" although he doesn't meet conventional requirements..

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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 1:01PM #8
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,164
The more I think about Ghandi, the more I wonder about others' definitions of "saint."

I have known a couple of "ordinary" people whom I also think of as "saints".  But, the world will not know about them.

Ghandi accomplished a miracle - the freedom of his country using non-violent means. And he died for it too - he was a martyr.

But, the couple of people I know whom I think of as "saints" are not national heroes or heroines.

Yet, their lives are shining examples of goodness to those fortunate enough to know them.

So, what IS a good working definition of "saint."?
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 1:18PM #9
Whisperingal
Posts: 25,009
Well "Bearification" got me to look at this thread--"beatification" would not have.

Good work!
;)

Newman has been one of my faves too.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 17, 2008 - 6:20PM #10
rjak134
Posts: 320
[QUOTE=jwbidwell;630931]Does this really have to be another round of "Catholic Culture Wars"? Perhaps he was a loyal son of Holy Mother Church AND someone not afraid to think for himself. Last I checked, complexity wasn't a sin. Instead of fighting over who gets to use him as a club with which to beat the others, I would truly appreciate hearing why you think Newman is a saint, as I have only a vague knowledge of the man.[/QUOTE]

Newman is a major figure for me - indeed, if he'd been canonized before I was received, I would've been confirmed under his name (since he wasn't, I took St. Athanasius of Alexandria instead).  Before becoming a Catholic, I was a member of the Episcopal Church, where I started going shortly after becoming a Christian, which I did my senior year of high school.  As an Episcopalian, I was heavily influenced by Anglo-Catholicism, and also watched a good deal of EWTN during the summer (i.e. when it was available to me).  This, coupled with my studies into the early history of the Church, made me realize more and more the problems of Episcopalianism, and really Protestantism in general.

All these troubles & conflicts really came to a head at the time of TEC's last general convention, which was pretty disastrous for the conservatives.  And it was during that time of questioning & difficulty with my Episcopal beliefs that I bought, and then blazed through Newman's Apologia Pro Vita Sua, in which he chronicles his spiritual life, from his upbringing, his helping found the Oxford Movement, and how his commitment to the Anglo-Catholic principles took him further than he expected, all the way into the Catholic Church.

Reading Newman at that time was like a message from God.  The most impressive part is that, in Newman's time, the trend towards "liberal religion" was just beginning, in it's most infant form.  Yet he saw the entire problem with it, exposed it, and accurately predicted pretty much everything that's happened in the last 150 years (not in specific detail, of course, but in terms of general principle).

The best way I can describe the impact of Newman on my life is to borrow a form from C.S. Lewis' Surprised By Joy.  Before I began reading the Apologia Pro Vita Sua I was an Anglican with a great deal of problems.  After I finished, I was a Catholic with none.  I likely would've ended up converting anyhow, sooner or later, but Newman was the final word, the decisive moment that pushed me out of Canterbury and into Rome.  And for that, I am eternally grateful to the Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman (and I can't wait to be able to say "Saint" instead of "Venerable" there!).
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