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Switch to Forum Live View Stealing the Sacred and the Ridicule that Ensues
6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 5:14PM #1
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
Regardless of whether  you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist/Blessed Sacrament or not, the act and the words of the blogger for me are intolerance to the max.  It is a serious matter and the news reports don't have it all correct when the terms are messed up and the theology as well.  For faithful Catholics, the consecration/transubstantiation that occurs during Mass is not a 'sympol' but the real deal.  Read the Gospel of John Chapter 6.  Jesus says to do this in remembrance of Me.  He says this IS MY BODY and THIS IS MY BLOOD.  I am the LIVING BREAD come down from Heaven.   My Flesh is real food and My Blood is real drink. 

For some evidence of scientific proof check this out:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst … ciano.html

You can choose not to believe this, but for those who do, the act of stealing a Host (a consecrated altar bread) - which for faithful Catholics truly is the Body of Christ - and no - "cracker" or "wafer" aren't the correct terms unless you like to minimize others' beliefs and not use the terms preferred/requested by the religion/people you may be bashing - is a sacrilege/great offense.  Consider what would offend your (religious) sensibilities and respond accordingly - if someone were doing one of the worst things to what you hold sacred.  Then you might have an idea of the gravity of this here.

I don't agree with death threats to the person who did this.  I believe this happens more often than gets reported.  I believe some do not realize the seriousness of the offense, while others enjoy making sport of a serious matter - possibly out of ignorance, possibly out of malice.  I pray for mercy either way.



http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/fa … ber+Center

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages … 1.1&sflg=1

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 … racker.php

Please.  When visiting a place of worship, try to respect the community there and don't do things that cause scandal.  If you aren't sure, please ask.  If this isn't your 'cup of tea', well, maybe don't visit there in the first place then.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 6:09PM #2
looshawn
Posts: 2,099
[QUOTE=etsryan;622461]Regardless of whether  you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist/Blessed Sacrament or not, the act and the words of the blogger for me are intolerance to the max.  It is a serious matter and the news reports don't have it all correct when the terms are messed up and the theology as well.  For faithful Catholics, the consecration/transubstantiation that occurs during Mass is not a 'sympol' but the real deal.  Read the Gospel of John Chapter 6.  Jesus says to do this in remembrance of Me.  He says this IS MY BODY and THIS IS MY BLOOD.  I am the LIVING BREAD come down from Heaven.   My Flesh is real food and My Blood is real drink. 

For some evidence of scientific proof check this out:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst … ciano.html

You can choose not to believe this, but for those who do, the act of stealing a Host (a consecrated altar bread) - which for faithful Catholics truly is the Body of Christ - and no - "cracker" or "wafer" aren't the correct terms unless you like to minimize others' beliefs and not use the terms preferred/requested by the religion/people you may be bashing - is a sacrilege/great offense.  Consider what would offend your (religious) sensibilities and respond accordingly - if someone were doing one of the worst things to what you hold sacred.  Then you might have an idea of the gravity of this here.

I don't agree with death threats to the person who did this.  I believe this happens more often than gets reported.  I believe some do not realize the seriousness of the offense, while others enjoy making sport of a serious matter - possibly out of ignorance, possibly out of malice.  I pray for mercy either way.



http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/fa … ber+Center

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages … 1.1&sflg=1

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 … racker.php

Please.  When visiting a place of worship, try to respect the community there and don't do things that cause scandal.  If you aren't sure, please ask.  If this isn't your 'cup of tea', well, maybe don't visit there in the first place then.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you 100% etsryan - for I too am a Catholic - and I believe in my faith.

But I've learned over time here at BeliefNet that Catholicism is not discussed at BeliefNet Forums such as "U.S. News & Politics" (and others) unless you want to deal with continuos criticism and sarcasm.

Your best bet is taking a topic like yours and going to the "Faith & Practices Sub-Forum" on BeliefNet. Of course choose the "Catholic Forum" and then from there choose the "Ave Maria Cafe Forum" (which has the most activty). As a matter of fact, I think the story you told was recently being discussed there. (But those blogs are recent)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 6:14PM #3
catboxer
Posts: 14,012
This is a really interesting topic to me, even though I don't, as they say, have a dog in this fight, because I'm not a Christian.

However, I always liked the response the great American writer Flannery O'Connor gave to some guy -- some Catholic convert I think it was -- who told her he thought the eucharist was an extremely potent symbol.

"If it's a symbol, to hell with it," she said.

But putting all that aside, I really wonder what this thread is doing on the US News and Politics board.

I guess it's here because everybody has to be somewhere.
Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 6:15PM #4
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848
etsryan,

Though I am not Catholic.  I share your consternation with this.  I come from a protestant tradition which (because of early temperance tradition) uses grape juice instead of wine.  BUT....

You are absolutely right.  Both common sense and common courtesy demand respect for other traditions, paticularly when visiting in their places of worship.
Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 6:40PM #5
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
reply to post #2 (cute picture of Obama with Pooh, by the way!) and post #3  (note the link to the NEWS STORY in the OP)

i realize that, but this is a news story and I wished to start with it in the news forum...

i will look for it in the catholic circles, too   I wan't necessary looking for a sympathetic audience.  I wished for more general discussion in a forum such as this.

this blogger is in my area and i forwarded info to the newman center here to get some discussion and witness going on campus regarding this.

Thanks, Christianlib/post #4
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 7:40PM #6
CityZen_X
Posts: 2,465
I wonder what Horus Christ would have to say about all of this?
To "choose" dogma and faith over doubt and experiment is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-Aid."

Christopher Hitchens

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
  - Sir Richard Francis Burton
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 8:40PM #7
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
would  you clarify that?

meanwhile, bigotry runs rampant over the land of the free and home of the brave where religious liberty is one of the founding principles...  maybe some folks should have stayed on the other side of the pond and faced the persecution there.  might have been an easier row to hoe...hmm
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 8:56PM #8
CityZen_X
Posts: 2,465

etsryan wrote:

would you clarify that?

meanwhile, bigotry runs rampant over the land of the free and home of the brave where religious liberty is one of the founding principles... maybe some folks should have stayed on the other side of the pond and faced the persecution there. might have been an easier row to hoe...hmm


Just Google "Horus" and you will find all the items the Christians borrowed (putting it nicely). Your Eucharist is another matter all together. I wont bother getting into the origins. Let's just say it may well blow your "cap" off, as in Amanita Muscaria. Row thy hoe on that one!

To "choose" dogma and faith over doubt and experiment is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-Aid."

Christopher Hitchens

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
  - Sir Richard Francis Burton
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 1:15AM #9
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
"altar bread(s)" or "Host" (s)

thank you

how about some feedback about the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy?  a link in the OP is provided to a site with info.
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 1:28AM #10
Chiyo
Posts: 5,799
There was a day, early in the history of the RCC (exact date escapes me) that the Congregation was seen as being comprised of two types of people; Uninitiated and the Initiated. The Uninitiated were permitted to sit through the Mass from the beginning only the end of the reading of the Gospel -- then, they were escorted out because they were not permitted to witness the priest say the words of Transubstantiation and they were not permitted to receive Eucharist. Only the Initiated were permitted to witness and take part in the Mystery. And, it could take years to become Initiated, not solely because of the Education requirements, but because the Initiate had to earn the trust of the priest and Congregation -- someone had to be known and trusted in order to receive the Eucharist.

If the Catholics want to be that defensive in regard to the Eucharist, they need to return to the above Tradition and stop handing out Eucharist to any stranger who stands in line.

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