| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 10:45AM #21 | |
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If the Scriptures were "plainly delivered" we wouldn't have these problems. They were probably plainly delivered to the people who heard them. Unfortunately, we are not those people and cannot possibly listen with the same ears without help.
Spong, Borg, the Jesus Seminar and others are trying to find ways to help us listen with ears as close to those who heard the "originals" as possible. It seems to me that is the only way to understand the message. But they are condemned by people who want to control the message... |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 10:45AM #22 | |
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Bob: I appreciate your thoughts. I have gone along ways. Faith is reformulating with the challenge of the Jesus seminar. Others make us aware of the Global changes who are from the evangelical orientation. Marvelous exchange. Richard
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 10:58AM #23 | |
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Agree with Bob; great posts; keen insights; no hostility.
If I might add my personal shade of understanding to what has already been so cogently expressed: - We are working through a Paradigm Shift (q.v. Thomas Kuhn); the "traditional vs. the emerging paradigms". Kuhn has identified seven such shifts in Western history. - The 1st. world is increasingly non-religious because Christianity as traditionally explicated is gibberish, non-sensical, to the contemporary Western mind. Newer forms of explication must be evolved in order for the faith to be intelligible. In this process, the "traditional paradigmers" will view the "emerging paradigmers" as heretics and apostates; threats to the faith once delivered. The "emerging paradigmers" will view the "traditional paradigmers" as benighted obscurantists. There is little effective communication across the paradigmatic hiatus. - While the corruption issue was part of the theory of process of the 16th. century reformation, emerging nationalism, economic interests and authority shift played central roles. In the third world, we see the emergence of National interest (often manifested as anti-Western hostility) and the attempt to shift the locus of authority from Rome, Canterbury, and other traditional centers to 3rd. world centers. 3rd. world missionary efforts to the 1st. world will create de facto financial resources and support for Global South churches. - Several posters have indicated that evolution is a continuous and critical life-process; absent evolution and life enters stasis --- the first stage of extinction. Let's bear in mind that a manifest phenomenon of evolution is speciation, new species and cultivars. In ecclesial terms this translates as new churches distinct from the original parent species. - In ages past people petitioned God and religion for help in a wide spectrum of human concerns. In Western society today, it is the scientist who has produced anesthesia, antisepsis, broad-spectrum anti-biotics, effective medications and replacement therapies --- not petitionary prayer. The validated explanations for natural phenomena and kosmic structure and function have replaced --- rendered obsolete, even absurd --- theological based explanations. In the Western world, institutional religion must change or die.
Walk Your Own DharmaPath; be awake.
The Socratic Standard: Follow the evidence;____ if it doesn't make sense, it's bull$#!+. Dutch |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 1:54PM #24 | |
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Dutch's post alludes to something I was pondering in the car earlier today - what I call "creeping rationalism". I think the Global South, and traditionalists in general, will see alot of it as time goes on. And, oddly, we too in the North.
From my scan of history, the more people read the Bible, the more they want to read, period. As they become increasingly literate, they adopt ideas that were foreign to them earlier in life, or foreign to their parents. For example, over one or two generations, the idea that the earth's creation happened in 7 days has all but died out about among people who self-identify as evangelical here in the West. Fifty years ago, they would have been in the minority. Evangelicals still consider the Bible the infallible word of God, but the 7 Day Creation could no longer could stand up to the science, and, somehow, undetected, a different explanation crept into their exegesis. And now, among some of the evangelical denominations, women are appearing in leadership roles, even in their ordain ministries. The Bible is still the infallible word of God, but women kinda crept in there. What will they look like 75 years from now? What will Global South Christendom look like 75 years from now? If they end up building Bible colleges, which morph into universities, and start to look more and more like modern universities, what will the Global South church look like? And here in the Global North? Pretty soon, say Marcus Borg become the guy to read in seminary, more and mroe priests and ministers approach the unchurched or the disbelieving with a more rational approach to Jesus and Christianity, and it now speaks to them in their own language and culture? Will they stop beating a path to the exit? Will they start beating a path to the entrance? All very intriguing. |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 3:03PM #25 | |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 3:45PM #26 | |
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I think that we need to consider certain trends in the West/North which are attempting to re-sacralize life.
Some of the trends to re-sacralize life stems from the failure of secularization and affluence to answer some of life's deepest questions. We see them either in a quest for spirituality, or a return to fundamentalism. In either sense, it's a longing for the sacred in life, as much a part of life as food and air. On the flip side of "creeping rationalism", progressives are looking for a way to say in their own language what traditionalists can already say in theirs, and not make it sound like an imitation or concoction of traditionalism. They want to "mean it", and they know they've got to "mean it", if they want anything such as an authentic faith. It may require, on their part, to change their minds about our worldview. |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 3:56PM #27 | |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 4:17PM #28 | |
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[QUOTE=ToujoursDan;129748]Absolutely.
I think the big difference is that this re-sacralization (if that is a word) is that it isn't a movement to get bums in pews on Sunday. It seems to be mostly apart from the institutional church, very informal and often eclectic in belief. So I wouldn't expect empty churches to become what they were in the 1950s but saying that Christianity is dead in the west is premature as well IMHO.[/QUOTE] I agree that it is in it's nascent stage, which explains its absence from the pulpit and in the pews. I also agree that the death of Christianity in the West is grossly overstated. Here in North America, if a mere 25% of the population are church-going, self-identified Christians, that would roughly be a number of 87,000,000 people? Excuse me? Eighty-seven million people??? |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 10, 2007 - 8:24PM #29 | |
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Anyone ever read Loren Mead's "The Once and Future Church"? Had the chance to meet and spend several days with him and really came away impressed. You can get a nice summation of the book here . Here are a couple of key points he makes:
The congregation is at a critical point of change' This is a confused time - we struggle for vision. clarity, and direction Our confusion relates to: 1. We are facing a fundamental change in how we understand the mission of the church 2. Congregations have moved from a supporting role in mission to a front-line active role 3. Institutional structures and forms developed to support the' vision of mission are collapsing, and we are being called to reinvent new forms and structures for the new mission of the church A time for a Paradigm shift And The Reinvention of the Church involves - more intentional formation of the laity - better catechumenates - teaching people to 'do theology' - an altered clergy role: partnership with laity, training, encouraging - resources flowing from top down rather than bottom up - seeing crises as learning points - encouraging innovation I also liked this quote from Mead in this article: Similar to the Babylonian captivity of Israel, Mead describes the difficulty of the modern church. "We still wake up in the morning thinking we are in Jerusalem," writes Mead, "And yet . . . more of us have begun to realize that the world we inhabit is not Jerusalem." Just some thoughts on the new Reformation. |
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