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11 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2007 - 2:00PM #1
danman916
Posts: 2,627
I have a question because I don't quite understand how Eastern Christians view these things.

it is my understanding Eastern Catholics in union with the Bishop of Rome are not allowed to Holy Communion at the divine liturgy of an Orthodox Church.

Why is this? Do you not share the same beliefs as your Eastern Catholic bretheren?
What confuses me is that many Eastern Catholics would adhere to the statement made by the Melkite Greek Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby in his 1995 statement of faith called the Zoghby Initiative.

In his statement he affirmed:


1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.



Now, I know that neither the Catholic Church, nor the Eastern Orthodox Chruch has accepted this, but neither has the Catholic Church condemned this proposal either.

And since Rome has not taken any action condemning this proposal and doesn't appear to be moving in that direction, why would there be a barrier to Communion with the Catholic East, and the Eastern Orthodox?

I really can't reconcile this.


Do you all see this as false unity?

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11 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2007 - 3:10PM #2
WitnessNJ
Posts: 144
Eastern Catholics in union with the Bishop of Rome must be in agreement with the teachings of the Bishop of Rome, or why are they in union?    I do realizes that that situation is more an act of history than anything else, but I don’t see them as having a false union with Rome.
   
  Remember it is not the Western or Eastern Rite that is the barrier, it is the teachings of the Churches.
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11 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 11:46AM #3
Seraphim
Posts: 504
The problem lies in the communion with Rome part.  Orthodoxy and Rome have a number of significant points of theological difference that cannot be overlooked just so we can all sing kumbyah around a common campfire.

From the Orthodox perspective a number of things went wrong in the west:

1. Gradual loss of a proper prenoma/mindset as it grew culturally distant from early Christian centers in the east which in turn led to errant spirituality which in turn undergirded the development over the centuries of increasingly deviant doctrines and practices. Granted there were a number of historical forces that pushed Rome out of effective fellowship for a number of centuries with the Christian east but rather than heal themselves when contact was renewed and strengthened they pulled away even further.

2. The RCC doctrines of Papal authority within the Church and the tampering with the Creed together with the errant theology it supports are the primal fissures that Orthodoxy will never compromise on...not an iota.

3. In the centuries since the schism there have come along such things as scholasticism (which an anathemized heresy to the east called Barlamism), the immaculate conception dogma, the dogmatization of the Assumption of the Virgin (not that we don't believe she was assumed, rather we don't believe it is an appropriate point of dogma), purgatory (which teaching in the RCC seems to have become more fluid and changeable than in previous centuries...what will they believe about it tomorrow), visualization techniques in prayer (Rosary) which are insanely dangerous by Orthodox standards and are just forbidden, dangerously lax monastic standards...turning most of them into easy breezy social workers before they are contemplatives, celibate priesthood, doctrine of Transubstantiation (an offshoot of scholasticism), "priestcraft" (mistaken notions and practices with regard to the nature and exercise of sacramental priesthood), the acceptance of false apparitions and compounding them with errant devotions. 

The list is great. Some things are of greater weight than others, Some more easily correctable than others, but since they have yet to see these things as erroneous, even heretical there can yet be no basis for intercommunion.

To have communion with someone says we have the same faith. Orthodoxy and Rome do not have the same faith. So if one is in communion with Rome one cannot simultaneously have communion with Orthodoxy regardless of all other similarities of belief and practice.
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11 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2007 - 11:32PM #4
christskr07
Posts: 5
I know since I have been looking into the diffrences with respect to catholic or orthodox it seems like the Orthodox are so much more in line with scripture and Holy tradition as set out by the early fathers.
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11 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 4:32PM #5
danman916
Posts: 2,627
Seraphim,

[Quote]
The list is great. Some things are of greater weight than others, Some more easily correctable than others, but since they have yet to see these things as erroneous, even heretical there can yet be no basis for intercommunion.


I have addressed some of these on the other Catholic board where we are having a discussion, so instead of having parallel discussions going, I won't respond to your list here.


To have communion with someone says we have the same faith. Orthodoxy and Rome do not have the same faith. So if one is in communion with Rome one cannot simultaneously have communion with Orthodoxy regardless of all other similarities of belief and practice.


I guess my confusion stems from the fact that many Eastern Catholic faithful assent to the statement of Archbishop Elias Zoghby, which would seem to assert that they share the same faith as the Eastern Orthodox, yet they are able to reconcile these differences in order to remain in Communion with Rome.

So the question is, if they truly do believe the same as you do, why not admit them into your communion?
If anything, what they are guilty of is a false sense of unity with Rome, not the Ecumenical Patriarch and the East.

Maybe it's a question that Eastern Orthodox can't answer, but is better suited for Eastern Catholics.
However, they don't seem to see the tension that Eastern Orthodox do.

Doesn't that puzzle most of you, and cause you to ask them how they can be in communion with Rome and yet proclaim the same faith you do?

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11 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 4:37PM #6
KatherineOrthodixie
Posts: 3,689
[QUOTE=danman916;120986]Doesn't that puzzle most of you, and cause you to ask them how they can be in communion with Rome and yet proclaim the same faith you do?[/QUOTE]

It sure puzzles me, but then I hear folks saying a lot of odd things. Like how someone who does not share the same faith but say they do anyway.
“The Law of the Church is to give oneself to what is given not to seek one’s own.” Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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11 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 9:10AM #7
WitnessNJ
Posts: 144

danman916 wrote:

So the question is, if they truly do believe the same as you do, why not admit them into your communion?
If anything, what they are guilty of is a false sense of unity with Rome, not the Ecumenical Patriarch and the East.

   It has happened here is the America , Saint Alexis Toth a Greek Rite priest, he and his entire community of 361 parishioners were received back into the Orthodox Church.  Many others have also been received this way.   

see:  Orthodox Christians in North America 1794 - 1994 Chapter 2.

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11 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 9:10AM #8
WitnessNJ
Posts: 144

danman916 wrote:

So the question is, if they truly do believe the same as you do, why not admit them into your communion?
If anything, what they are guilty of is a false sense of unity with Rome, not the Ecumenical Patriarch and the East.

   It has happened here is the America , Saint Alexis Toth a Greek Rite priest, he and his entire community of 361 parishioners were received back into the Orthodox Church.  Many others have also been received this way.   

see:  Orthodox Christians in North America 1794 - 1994 Chapter 2.

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