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10 years ago  ::  Jan 02, 2008 - 12:53PM #51
spudette
Posts: 959
Excatholicman: In response to your posting # 32, when I study the Bible, it is an ongoing project, a study of the whole Bible, so yes, I did study the passages you mention, long before you told me to. But yes, I went over those passages once more, and they tell me the same thing that they have always told me. that it is not the law that saves me, but that I along with you and everyone else, need the law to tell me when I sin so that I can come to God in deep repentance. I have said before, and I will say again, some people read the Bible to find what they believe, and some read it to believe what they find. I take THE WHOLE THING into consideration, not just some parts that I can then twist at my convenience. Especially NOT to condemn anyone else. Here is a portion of  Gal. 3 that show s me that Paul didn't ever say that we may disregard the law:

Gal 3:19-29
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

If we truly are in christ, then we don't do those things that the law says are wrong, and if we don't break the law, we don't go to trial. God seeks to perfect us. If we allowed Him to perfect us quickly, Jesus would have already returned to take us home with Him. But we don't do that, even with our best intentions, we continue to sin, so we still need the law to act as a mirror to show us when we have trangressed. If you tell me that you don't ever sin, then the truth is not in you, and guess who the truth is.
I never said that I chose the law to be my judge, just that I need the law to tell me when I do wrong so that I can go to my Savior to be forgiven and cleansed and given the power to resist temptation next time.
Jesus has taught me to love everyone. Loving people doesn't include telling them that they are cursed. Jesus said He didn't come to condemn us, but to save us. You, Excatholicman, have condemned me more than once, but I can't find it in my heart to be angry at you. I do pray for you because I believe that someone or something must have hurt you very badly in order for you to speak so harshly. If at any time I sound harsh, it is not my intention, and I ask your forgiveness. I only come to this forum to exchange ideas and thoughts. If someone here expresses a n idea I never considered before, then I do consider it, and if it makes sense to me, then I accept it, and if not, I don't, but I surely don't condemn the other person for thinking they way they do. It is my hope that everyone else on this board does the same with the ideas and thoughts that I share.
Remember, my brother: even Satan can't force you to do something you don't want to do, and God won't force you, because that's the kind of God He is. He forces no one. But every choice we make comes with its natural consequences.
May God bless you richly.
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9 years ago  ::  May 29, 2009 - 10:18AM #52
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Some Jewish teachers would oppose the teaching of the Law to non-Jews(please forgive the usage) Others on the other hand approve. It is perhaps fortunate that we and our Jewish friends obseve the Sabbath on different days. There are some in Judaism who deem it inappropriate for Gentiles to observe the Sabbath as they do. Our Sunday sabbath deals with their qualms. Technically, we observe the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath.


Every Christian Bible includes the Penteteuch and that means the Decalogue. We are bound by the Moral Law even though we are not bound by the Ceremonial Law. Even though Catechisms are not a part of our tradition, they do school us on the Decalogue (as well as basic Christian doctrine and prayer modelled on the Lord's Prayer)

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2009 - 2:50AM #53
spudette
Posts: 959

Roodog, do you believe we should obey ALL Ten commandments? because if you do, it seems illogical to  observe Sunday instead of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, and Sunday is the first. God made the 7th day holy, not the first.

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9 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2009 - 10:24PM #54
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Dear friends,


Christians DO differ over the observance of the Ten Commandments.


In what I  have been exposed to in the Reformed Tradition, Sunday IS the the Sabbath and is observed rigorously as such.  On the other hand, there are Christians who attend Church on Saturday. The Fourth Commandment is the only one which not reiterated in the New Testament. The Sabbath is a remembrance of God's rest after Creation, the Lord's Day recalls Jesus' resurrection on that first Easter.


The Church uses te Decalogue differently than does Judaism, the Sermon on the Mount makes it clear that the Ten Commandments cannot be adequately observed because Christ holds us accountable  for our thoughts and desires and not just our actions. St. Paul taught the Law was our tutor to let us realize our need for God's Grace through Christ.


 

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 2:01AM #55
sincerly
Posts: 4,052

Please excuse me for butting in. I just came to this Discussion and wanted to add my thoughts as well.  I see for the moment that the topic is back according to the thread.


Jun 5, 2009 -- 10:24PM, Roodog wrote:

Dear friends,  Christians DO differ over the observance of the Ten Commandments.


In what I  have been exposed to in the Reformed Tradition, Sunday IS the the Sabbath and is observed rigorously as such.  On the other hand, there are Christians who attend Church on Saturday. The Fourth Commandment is the only one which not reiterated in the New Testament. The Sabbath is a remembrance of God's rest after Creation, the Lord's Day recalls Jesus' resurrection on that first Easter.


The Church uses te Decalogue differently than does Judaism, the Sermon on the Mount makes it clear that the Ten Commandments cannot be adequately observed because Christ holds us accountable  for our thoughts and desires and not just our actions. St. Paul taught the Law was our tutor to let us realize our need for God's Grace through Christ. 



From the very first, God gave HIS Created human beings the "freedom to choose". (i.e.) GOD wanted the worship of GOD to be from an attitude of LOVE----NOT coercion/fear/or any other force. GOD did say that with the power to choose there came a very serious consequence to the wrongful eating from a tree GOD placed "off-limits" to them. There was no "Option". Death was the penalty. The scriptures reveal that death was in two parts. A physical death and a Spiritual death.(those were discussed previously----and are off-topic).)


Cain gives us an example of how serious GOD takes the WORSHIP OF HIM. And it is related to the Sacrifice of HIS SON for one's sins. (Again, it is the Decalogue which points out one's failure to be Obedient to GOD's Will."   WE know by the Scriptures that Jesus is "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world". Rev.13:8 Therefore, when GOD slew that animal to clothe Adam and Eve. (Gen.3:21) GOD revealed the correct method for the Atonement of Sins. Cain was disobedient to the instructions/example given----"Sin lay at his door."


But to return to Adam and Eve, (In James2:10, If one is broken all ten are broken), (1)When the pair choose to accept the words of Satan over GOD's----Who became their lord and master?  (2) and by extension, their god figure to bow to. (3) Therefore, they had taken the name as children of GOD in vain., (4)As children of GOD they had "Dishonored Him", (5)Killing---As we saw above, they received the blood of Christ via that "shadow"/animal sacrifice which was the "very image" of Christ. (6)Adultery---In accepting the lordship of another.See the book of Hosea,  (7)Steal----they took of the forbidden fruit.,  (8)Lie/False witness----They blamed others rather than themselves. (9) Lust/coveting---"she saw"--"good for food, pleasant to eye, desired to make one wise",  (10)Sabbath-----As seen They would have followed their new "master"----"Break one---break them all."


Roodog, the question isn't about "Christians DO differ over the observance of the Ten Commandments.". The question becomes one of "BY whose Authority was they changed"?


The first "Great Commandment" is in regards to LOVE TO GOD. It was GOD who selected and "BLESSED and SANCTIFIED" the seventh day of that week of Creation.----the fourth of the Commandments in how one is to LOVE God . The weekly cycle has been continuous since.  John 1:1-3, establishes that Jesus created all things. Paul in 1Cor.10:4, says not to be ignorant--It was Jesus who was that Rock at Sinai . Therefore, since Jesus was the Creator and at Eden and at Sinai, there is no excuse for not believing that (Mark2:27-28) Jesus is the LORD of the Sabbath Day. Also, many times Jesus spoke of things which were to come to pass. Jesus upheld the seventh day Sabbath and as HIS custom was "Remembered" it by attending the Synagogue Services. NO place did Jesus advocate a change of the Day HE "Blessed and made Holy". The Sabbath day would still be in observance 40 years after HIS Resurrection by HIS Prophecy.----the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.(A.D.70) 


Roodog,  A "tradition" doesn't set aside GOD'S Commandments and isn't valid if it is "man made". Notice what Eusebius(A.D.270-338, an early church father) wrote: "All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day."----Commentary on the psalms, Eusebius; cited in the Commentary on the Apocalypse, Moses Sturat, vol.II, 9, 40. Andover: Allen, Morrill, and Wardwell, 1845.


Roodog, The "Four Gospels" are a part of the N.T., Paul Kept the Sabbath.(Acts 16:13; and notice 24:14, "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"    Also, In Acts 15:21,  It was the same teachings taught every Sabbath that James wrote concerning the worship of the Gentiles. Therefore, to close one's eyes to the fact that the Seventh day Sabbath was NOT taught in the N.T. is a fallacy.


Jesus said HE was the LORD of the Sabbath(7th day). NOT the First day of the week.  Review Eusebius' acknowledgement above. The giving life to a lie by adding "Lord's day" to the first day of the week. In the multiple times Jesus met with the Disciples after the Resurrection, Jesus never commanded that the day on which HE Arose be commemorated/set apart. Again man-made. The Resurrection is seen and partaken of in one's Baptism. HIS death is seen in the partaking of the "Lord's Communion" "When you come together"/"As oft as you do it".


The sermon on the mount didn't give any stricter Commandments, Only clarified them from the erroneous beliefs given them by the "Jewish leaders."  Example: (Matt.22:24-29)   Also, Jesus showed that it is possible to "Keep the Commandments"----He Sinned not. HE used no power which isn't available to each of us. "Tempted like as we are". And the Writer of Hebrews 12:1, states that we are to "lay aside that little sin which so easily besets us". Again, a reference to the Decalogue.

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 9:19AM #56
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

As I have written before, Christians do differ on the Ten commandments.


The Church generally views the saturday sabbath in the same way it views the animal sacrifices mandated by the Torah. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law like animal sacrifices.The Church does not engage in animal sacrifices nor does She require circumcision. To push the saturday sabbath is like calling for circumcision and and animal sacrifices to be required.


Furthermore, the New Testament records Christians observing the Lord's Day, that is enough for me.


 

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 2:49PM #57
sincerly
Posts: 4,052

Jun 8, 2009 -- 9:19AM, Roodog wrote:


As I have written before, Christians do differ on the Ten commandments.



Roodog, that is called "freedom of choice". However,  Proverbs 14:12(16:25) states the fact of Eve's decision, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death."  As we see in the "Four Gospels", the Pharisees and scribes were more interested in preserving  their "man made traditions and commandments" than those vital instructions/Laws which GOD(Jesus,  1Cor.10:4; John 1:1-3) had given for the right relationship of mankind to GOD and fellow being. Jesus denounced them and their wrong beliefs.-----however, they "professed to worship the true GOD" Mark7:7-13, "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.  For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: (Jesus upholds/establishes the Decalogue------that which HE Wrote with HIS Finger.)  But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].  And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. " 


In Acts(15:5-21) James and that "council at Jerusalem" were also, upholding the Decalogue in reminding one that it was not the Decalogue which was a "BURDEN", but those traditions imposed as "traditions and commandments of men"----They had been teaching that JESUS CHRIST had fulfilled the "Scriptures" concerning HIS Mission of Sacrificial Atonement for sins Luke 24:27.44-48.


Let's look at another of Jesus declarations concerning "professed obedience." And this from the sermon on the mount. Matt.7:20-23, " Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


Jesus said by their "fruits"-----Obedience and full commitment to the WILL OF the FATHER. That which they claimed appeared like "good works", but Jesus said in effect that their will wasn't in compliance the that of the Father.----therefore, iniquity and rejection. "the way which seemeth right". Therefore, the "study, rightly dividing the word of truth"--"the being fully persuaded in one's own mind" that what is taught is the Thus saith the Lord", The "It is written." and not the 'Traditions and commandments of men". "Be not deceived". ERROR is given life by being clothed in some truth.  Look at Eve and Jesus in the wilderness being tempted.----"hast not God said"?


ALL TEN OF THE DECALOGUE ARE VALID. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL VOIDING OF ANY OF THE DECALOGUE.  Those changes were made by man as prophesied in Dan. 7:25; and 2Thes.2:34


Roodog, It was the "Church"/institution in its councils which changed the "Commandments of GOD. The "Church"/ Assembly of God's people are obedient to HIS Commands/Decalogue.   And you are correct---Neither "circumcision nor animal sacrifices" are means of Salvation.


Can one really rely on the "blind to lead the blind"?  The "Gospel" was preached "that one might know". John3:17-21


 


 


 


 

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 5:41PM #58
spudette
Posts: 959

Roodog, I have searched many of the Christian forums and threads to find out why Christians would have differences of opinions about the Ten Commandments. I have asked direct questions on the subject, and not once have I received an  answer that makes sense to me. Yes, it has been said many times that the 4th commandment is not repeated in the N. T. It has been said that the "new commandment of the N. T. is to love God and to love each other. But first of all, the commandment to love God is not new. It is found in the Ten commandments. The commandment to love one another can be considered new, because even the Twelve didn't always show love for one antoher. They were more concerned about which of them would be the greatest in the Kingdom of God. It seems to me that the commandment to love God and to love one another is a synopsis, a condensed stqtement, if you will, of the Ten Commandments.


Matt 22:37-40
37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


The above statement is made by Jesus Himself.  If "on these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets", don't you think that the "whole Law" includes the Ten Commandments?


Rev 14:12
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


John 14:15-16
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


It seems to me that if, in the above quote, Jesus had meant for us to keep only the two so-called "new" commandments, He would have specified that, since He was speaking to people who were well acquainted with the whole Law of God (as well as with the man-made laws of the Pharisees). We also need to remember that Jesus is God also, not just God the Father, therefore the Ten Commandments are Jesus' Commandments


Even if you dpon't believe that Jesus is the God of Sinai, the statement in Rev. 14:12 that I quoted above refers to all the commandments of God, not just the short version found in several places in the N. T.


The Israelites, God's chosen people, were chosen for the purpose of teaching God's Law, and all His requirements, to all the nations of the world. God doesn't make any distinction between Jews and other poeple:


Rom 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."


Rom 2:10-16
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


 Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


When you read the scriptures I quoted above, do you get the impression that there is one set of laws for the Jews and another for the Gentiles? You see, Roodog, People's difference of opinions don't matter. The only thing that matters is what God says through His servants who wrote the Bible.


I now challenge anyone out there to read these texts, and then tell me, not what your pastor, or your denomination, teaches, but what you, yourselves, with the intelligence that God has given you, understand these texts to mean.


With much love in Jesus.


 


 


 


 

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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 8:17PM #59
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Some Sabbatarians consider the observance of the Lord's Day a grave sin, perhaps THE MARK OF THE BEAST. This is nonsense.


DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIANITY AS IT IS GENERALLY PRACTICED TO BE IN SOME GRAVE HERESY OR EVEN APOSTASY BECAUSE THEY KEEP THE LORD'S DAY.


HAS CHRISTIANITY SO DEPARTED FROM ITS JEWISH ROOTS THAT MESSIANIC JUDAISM IS NOT CHRISTIANITY AT ALL?


WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE TO THE MARKS OF A TRUE AND FALSE CHURCH? DOES THE OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH  ALONE MAKE THAT DISTINCTION?


If I seem passionate  about this, it seems to to be a direct and frontal attack on the Gospel of Grace. Are we saved and sanctified by GRACE alone through FAITH alone in CHRIST alone apart  from ANY work of the Law. Or must we add the works of the Law to our faith? Must we add Baptism? Must we add good works?


I utterly reject and condemn any effort to add to the Gospel of Grace.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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9 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2009 - 10:36PM #60
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Let me make myself perfectly clear:


I do not countanance nor tolerate sin. This is a higher standard than can be achieved until I am saved from the presence of sin when I go to Heaven.


I follow the custom of the Church as recorded in the New Testament of observing the Lord's Day. Furthermore I neither condemn or criticize my Sabbatarian friends for worshipping on Saturday. St Paul in Romans and Colossians forbids me to judge another in the observance of  sabbaths and holidays.


What I do take issue with is when the other view is imposed on myself and my brethren who observe the Lord's Day. As St. Paul forbids me to judge you, the same prohibition applies to Sabbatarian Christians. Furthermore, the Council of Jerusalem, as recorded in Acts 15,  laid a much lighter burden on Gentile believers than Judaizers would have wanted. Before the Council the requirement was imposed by the Judaizers was a full conversion to Judaism as a neccesity BEFORE becoming a Christan. This meant circumcision, kosher diet, Sabbath and Jewish holidays: the whole megillah. The Council of Jerusalem did not accept the Judaizers' position but sided with St. Paul.


The Epistle to the Galatians is a direct confrontation to the legalism of the Judaizers. It is a fiery and passionate tract that had made its way in the New Testament Canon. He points out how the required legalism was utterly incompatable to the Gospel. I urge my correspondents to read Galatians.


There has been a movement among some to discredit St. Paul and effectually remove his Epistles from the New Testament. To this, I reply that this is wrong. The Pauline Epistles are as authorative as the Gospels and the Penteteuch for the Christian. Furthermore, the Pauline Epistles are the only part of the New Testament to be endorsed by another New Testament writer. That writer was none other than St. Peter.


As this a Baptist thread , I invite and enjoin my fellow Baptists to weigh in on this matter.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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