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10 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2007 - 9:05PM #41
ex_catholicman
Posts: 560
.
In Reply to DrWhite, 35

RE: you still didn't tell where it says how the 144,000 translates into Jews.

Sir, from even just a cursory reading of your posts, I can tell that you possess at the very least a minimum command of the English language. So then, all I can say is; As you read Rev 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1-5, keep this colloquialism in mind: If a bird looks like a duck, if a bird quacks like a duck, if a bird walks like a duck; and most especially if a bird's name is Duck-- then the bird is prima facie a duck.

C.L.I.F.F.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2007 - 11:44PM #42
ex_catholicman
Posts: 560
.
Here's a few helpful tips for viewers who have trouble understanding the book of Revelation.

The book itself is a letter. However, it was neither written to, nor for, the world at large; no, it was specifically written for the benefit of a special group of people called "his servants".

<>Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must rapidly take place.

His servants possess what is known as "ears to hear".

<>Rev 2:7 . .He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Just because someone professes to be a Christian is no guarantee that they have that special ear; so if you're just a rank and file pew warmer, or an atheist, or an agnostic, or a Hindu, or a Muslim or a non Christian Jew, then John's letter is really none of your business.

In addition, it is extremely important to always keep in mind that John's letter was not intended to reveal God, but rather, it was intended to reveal His son.

<>Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ

So then, all the horrors and terrors developed in the book of Revelation are guided, commanded, and orchestrated by none other than Mr. turn-the-other-cheek, love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself, Jesus of the Gospels.

The Gospels, for the most part, portray a harmless, itinerant rabbi who went about doing good and never hurt anybody. The book of Revelation reveals a blood thirsty, vengeful, cruel despotic monarch intent upon ridding the earth of a goodly percentage of its human occupants.

<>Isa 63:1-6 . .Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

. .I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

. .And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

<>Rev 19:11-18 . .And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. .And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

. .And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

<>Mtt 24:27-28 . .For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

The first time the New Testament's Jesus came, it was as Messiah ben Joseph, the benevolent rabbi. The next time he comes will be as Messiah ben David, the warrior king who knows how to kick some serious butt.

<>Ps 2:10-12 . .Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve The Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

<>Luk 19:27 . .And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king-- bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.

C.L.I.F.F.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2007 - 9:05PM #43
ex_catholicman
Posts: 560
.
In Reply to DrWhite, 35

RE: you still didn't tell where it says how the 144,000 translates into Jews.

Sir, from even just a cursory reading of your posts, I can tell that you possess at the very least a minimum command of the English language. So then, all I can say is; As you read Rev 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1-5, keep this colloquialism in mind: If a bird looks like a duck, if a bird quacks like a duck, if a bird walks like a duck; and most especially if a bird's name is Duck-- then the bird is prima facie a duck.

C.L.I.F.F.
Quick Reply
Cancel
10 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2007 - 11:44PM #44
ex_catholicman
Posts: 560
.
Here's a few helpful tips for viewers who have trouble understanding the book of Revelation.

The book itself is a letter. However, it was neither written to, nor for, the world at large; no, it was specifically written for the benefit of a special group of people called "his servants".

<>Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must rapidly take place.

His servants possess what is known as "ears to hear".

<>Rev 2:7 . .He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Just because someone professes to be a Christian is no guarantee that they have that special ear; so if you're just a rank and file pew warmer, or an atheist, or an agnostic, or a Hindu, or a Muslim or a non Christian Jew, then John's letter is really none of your business.

In addition, it is extremely important to always keep in mind that John's letter was not intended to reveal God, but rather, it was intended to reveal His son.

<>Rev 1:1 . .The revelation of Jesus Christ

So then, all the horrors and terrors developed in the book of Revelation are guided, commanded, and orchestrated by none other than Mr. turn-the-other-cheek, love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself, Jesus of the Gospels.

The Gospels, for the most part, portray a harmless, itinerant rabbi who went about doing good and never hurt anybody. The book of Revelation reveals a blood thirsty, vengeful, cruel despotic monarch intent upon ridding the earth of a goodly percentage of its human occupants.

<>Isa 63:1-6 . .Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

. .I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

. .And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

<>Rev 19:11-18 . .And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. .And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

. .And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

<>Mtt 24:27-28 . .For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

The first time the New Testament's Jesus came, it was as Messiah ben Joseph, the benevolent rabbi. The next time he comes will be as Messiah ben David, the warrior king who knows how to kick some serious butt.

<>Ps 2:10-12 . .Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve The Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

<>Luk 19:27 . .And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king-- bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.

C.L.I.F.F.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2007 - 8:52AM #45
Drwhite
Posts: 309
[QUOTE=ex_catholicman;173246].
In Reply to DrWhite, 35

RE: you still didn't tell where it says how the 144,000 translates into Jews.

Sir, from even just a cursory reading of your posts, I can tell that you possess at the very least a minimum command of the English language. So then, all I can say is; As you read Rev 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1-5, keep this colloquialism in mind: If a bird looks like a duck, if a bird quacks like a duck, if a bird walks like a duck; and most especially if a bird's name is Duck-- then the bird is prima facie a duck.

C.L.I.F.F.[/QUOTE]

So, you have to resort to personal attacks. You actually know little about me and my educational background. From minimal information, you come up with a minimal characterization and quite erroneousness. That's fine.

It's all your interpretation anyway. It doesn't matter. Preach on!
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2007 - 10:43AM #46
ex_catholicman
Posts: 560
.
An Ear To Hear (msg #37)

<>Rev 2:7 . .He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Ask most any professing Christian and they will probably say they have that special ear to hear. But there is no need to guess at this as there is a sure-fire way to tell who really does, and who really does, not have that ear.

In every case, without exception, beneficiaries of that special ear are in the right-now possession of eternal life; no waiting period. In this next passage, note the grammatical tense of Jesus' "have" verb.

<>John 5:24 . .I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Yes; his "have" verb is in present tense rather than future tense. So then, professing Xians who are not in the right-now possession of eternal life are neither listening to Jesus' message nor are they believing in his God: they are dead, and they exist in grave danger of the wrath of the Bible's God. Don't argue with the man. John 5:24 is the personal testimony of God's son dispatched from Heaven to enlighten the world.

<>John 3:11 . .I tell you the truth: we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

According to God's own personal testimony, professing Xians who don't have eternal life, don't have His son either; viz: they are quite Christless.

<>1John 5:11-12 . .And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life; whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

To be Christless, is very serious.

<>Rom 8:9 . .If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

To reject God's personal testimony is to churlishly insinuate that He is a dishonest person of low moral integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

<>1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony, but God's testimony carries more weight because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about His son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him. Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His son.

C.L.I.F.F.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2007 - 4:30PM #47
spudette
Posts: 959
DrWhite, how right you are. excatholicman does resort to personal attack and he also threatens people will Hell, (the instant we die, at that, which is unbiblical teaching). That is definitely not the way Jesus and the Apostles gained converts. I will copy biblical quotes here to show what I mean, because if someone believes that we go straight to either heaven or hell when we die, this implies that a part of us remains conscious.

Eccl 12:7-8
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Here is the Strong's Concordance translation of the word "spirit" in the above quote:
In the language of the Old Testament, the word we translate  "spirit" is "ruwach"
OT:7307
ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Ps 146:1-4
Praise the LORD, O my soul!
2 I will praise the LORD while I live;
I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Eccl 9:5-6
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Eccl 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

1 Cor 15:50-55
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

1 Thess 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

My friend, study these quotes carefully. Do these sound as if we go straight to heaven or hell when we die? Does it say that we remain conscious?

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

How would Jesus raise anyone on the last day if they already are in heaven?

About the 144,000, my understanding of the Bible is that they are a special group among the people who are saved and will still be alive when Jesus returns. They will not necessarily be actual Jews, but remember that Christians are adopted into God's chosen people. They (That is us) become part of the descendants of Abraham, the spiritual Israel:

Rom 8:15-16
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Gal 4:5-7
5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Eph 1:5-6
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

The Lord Jesus Himself said that He had sheep in many different folds, and that HeHe would one day gather them all into one fold, so it is quite possible that there will be actual Jews among that special group of 144,000. Some people believe that this is an actual number. Personally, I believe that it is a symbolic number. However, what anyone believes on this subject has nothing to do with our salvation, so I really don't worry about it.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 30, 2007 - 7:53PM #48
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

ex_catholicman wrote:

.
In Reply to DrWhite, 35

RE: you still didn't tell where it says how the 144,000 translates into Jews.

Sir, from even just a cursory reading of your posts, I can tell that you possess at the very least a minimum command of the English language. So then, all I can say is; As you read Rev 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1-5, keep this colloquialism in mind: If a bird looks like a duck, if a bird quacks like a duck, if a bird walks like a duck; and most especially if a bird's name is Duck-- then the bird is prima facie a duck.

C.L.I.F.F.


Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Jews as we know them today constitute three tribes-Benjamin, Judah and Levi- the other nine are yet to be gathered from the ends of the earth

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 3:54PM #49
spudette
Posts: 959
Here is something for everyone here to think about: If the Book of Revelation, or any other part of the Scriptures, is not for the world at large, then what is it doing in the Bible? The bible in it's entirety is for the world at large, and when people insist on disregarding certain parts, their testimony to me is: We take what we like and leave the rest. My God is perfectly capable to address specific books to specific groups of people if that's what He wants to do. But He didn't do that with His Book the bible, therefore I take the whole thing to heart. There is so much to learn  there that none of us can adopt a set of beliefs and think that we extracted the whole truth. We all need to continue searching for truth previously unnoticed or not understood. If all the great Reformers were still alive today, they would no doubt say the same thing, and they would undoubtedly do just that.
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10 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2007 - 7:05PM #50
Drwhite
Posts: 309
[QUOTE=davelaw40;175048]
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Jews as we know them today constitute three tribes-Benjamin, Judah and Levi- the other nine are yet to be gathered from the ends of the earth[/QUOTE]

Thanks dave, I knew that was somewhere but I could not remember where. But, you didn't have to include off of that extra stuff. LOL!

I am curious to see how all of this plays out when it comes time. There is too much speculation, often, convoluted speculation about this time.
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