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Switch to Forum Live View God and life after death
7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 7:47PM #11
Merope
Posts: 9,539
[COLOR="Black"]Somewhat related to the question of the afterlife is the question of eschatology.  Here's a cool quiz I came across on another board:  What's Your Eschatology?[/COLOR]
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 1:34AM #12
jeanette1
Posts: 738
Moltmannian Eschatology is mine apparently.

Have no idea what that means..lol.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 10:50AM #13
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113
[QUOTE=Merope;47118][COLOR="Black"]Somewhat related to the question of the afterlife is the question of eschatology.  Here's a cool quiz I came across on another board:  What's Your Eschatology?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

  Moltmannian-100%
Amillenialist-100%
Preterist-75%

Moltmannian?   Isn't Moltmann's a Canadian beer?
:eek:
The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2007 - 12:09PM #14
journeying
Posts: 2,317
Moltmannian Eschatology  100%
Preterist
  100%
Amillenialist
  90%
Dispensationalist
  40%
Postmillenialist
  15%
Premillenialist
  0%
Left Behind
  0%

There was one question for which I didn't have an answer but I don't remember what it was.  I never heard of Moltmann but assume he is/was a serious thinker.  I only read Borg, Hitchins, Sylvia Browne, etc.  ;)

Shel
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 1:55PM #15
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113
[QUOTE=journeying;48486]Moltmannian Eschatology  100%
Preterist
  100%
Amillenialist
  90%
Dispensationalist
  40%
Postmillenialist
  15%
Premillenialist
  0%
Left Behind
  0%

There was one question for which I didn't have an answer but I don't remember what it was.  I never heard of Moltmann but assume he is/was a serious thinker.  I only read Borg, Hitchins, Sylvia Browne, etc.  ;)

Shel
[/QUOTE]

Why are all the great theologians German and the great chiefs Italian?  It's a fustigating conundrum indeed.

flickr.com/photos/oddsock/54384013/
The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 1:55PM #16
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113
[QUOTE=journeying;48486]Moltmannian Eschatology  100%
Preterist
  100%
Amillenialist
  90%
Dispensationalist
  40%
Postmillenialist
  15%
Premillenialist
  0%
Left Behind
  0%

There was one question for which I didn't have an answer but I don't remember what it was.  I never heard of Moltmann but assume he is/was a serious thinker.  I only read Borg, Hitchins, Sylvia Browne, etc.  ;)

Shel
[/QUOTE]

Why are all the great theologians German and the great chiefs Italian?  It's a fustigating conundrum indeed.

flickr.com/photos/oddsock/54384013/
The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2007 - 8:20PM #17
Mostyn32
Posts: 2,941
I did the quiz a couple of times (to be honest, some of the questions dealt with matters I had never really given a lot of thought to) and I scored as an Amillenialist 100%/Moltmann 70% the first time and the second time as Moltmann 100% and amillenialist 70%. Not sure what all that means, but as a great admirer of Moltmann, I'm satisfied.

Moltmann was one of the speakers at the 2007 Trinity Institute conference and he is amazing. While his writings can be quite dense for a non-academic reader like me, when he speaks, he is clearly a proponent of the Gospel of Love and Compassion.

Dutch, Moltmann is also the fellow who augured that it is the Anglican tradition that offers the most hope for the church! He is Professor Emeritus of Theology at Ulm University in Germany. He's now in his eighties, but he's still a powerhouse!
"God is no captious sophister, eager to trip us up whenever we say amiss, but a courteous tutor, ready to amend what, in our weakness or our ignorance, we say ill, and to make the most of what we say aright."  from 'A Learned Discourse on Justification', a sermon by Richard Hooker (1554-1600).
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2007 - 11:28AM #18
Dutch777
Posts: 9,113
[QUOTE=Mostyn32;64294]I did the quiz a couple of times (to be honest, some of the questions dealt with matters I had never really given a lot of thought to) and I scored as an Amillenialist 100%/Moltmann 70% the first time and the second time as Moltmann 100% and amillenialist 70%. Not sure what all that means, but as a great admirer of Moltmann, I'm satisfied.

Moltmann was one of the speakers at the 2007 Trinity Institute conference and he is amazing. While his writings can be quite dense for a non-academic reader like me, when he speaks, he is clearly a proponent of the Gospel of Love and Compassion.

Dutch, Moltmann is also the fellow who augured that it is the Anglican tradition that offers the most hope for the church! He is Professor Emeritus of Theology at Ulm University in Germany. He's now in his eighties, but he's still a powerhouse![/QUOTE]

Pls. study this metaphore for the authoritarian church flickr.com/photos/blownaway/408464817/

The more the donut tries to shut-in, suppress and dominate the jelly, --- with all the more force will the jelly shoot-out.   That's what the situation is with the authoritarian churchs vis-a-vis their people. I suspect Anglicanism's respect for personal boundaries and individual intellection; its ethos of penultimacy and nurture rather than procrusteanism, is the reason Anglicanism holds hope for the church.  Yes, I agree with this perspective.
The Path
To Moon Lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own Dharma*Path
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 14, 2007 - 9:25AM #19
Jenandew7
Posts: 12,923

Merope wrote:

Somewhat related to the question of the afterlife is the question of eschatology.  Here's a cool quiz I came across on another board:  [COLOR=blue]What's Your Eschatology?[/COLOR]



I don't have an Eschatology!  I think it is all a buncha malarky!  And quizzes like that mess with my balanced brain and the quiz becomes:  Choose brain:  spectrum from left to right:  no middle!

Maybe I'm not Episcopalian enough?  I came out as a Preterist. 

Each of us lives out the end times scenario in our own lives.  Each of us will have an end.  ;)  That's my eschatology!  So be wary and be prepared.  Keep oil in your lamp because you never know when the bridegroom cometh.

Annie

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 14, 2007 - 10:33AM #20
Jenandew7
Posts: 12,923

rbchaddy2000 wrote:

I am reverently agnostic on God and an after life. After much contemplation. I seem to meet empirical agnostic criteria. I believe that there is something to God. I reject supernatural theism. I am not a deist or pantheist. God for me is being itself. He is reality. He is impersonal as he can not be limited to personality. As humans, we are beings that become aware of the cosmic process and we have awe and reverence for it. God is somehow this process. I think and my heart wants to believe that we survive death in some way. Moody and Harpur talk about  life after death experiences. I reject the  Platonic immortality of the soul, and the Christian/Orthodox Jewish resurrection concepts, but I wish to affirm some kind of survival of death. I an reverently agnostic on what this means. Ir we survive death, it is universal for all without reward and punishment. Peace. Richard



I'm going to explain the sense of what I believe in my own words.  All theology falls short. 

If you think of infinity, your mind is almost incapable of it and will try to erect barriers, or walls.  But there is always something on the other side of the wall.  My sense of God is pure energy and God is not as we have conceived him in religion, but a metaphor for the sense we have of this energy.  I think the ancients were actually more aware of that than we are.  In some fashion, all things are connected and that connection is powerful.  I almost want to use the term Universal Consciousness. 

I can say with certainty that there is another reality.  You could say, perhaps, that I am psychic, but I hate it and I have intentionally tried to avoid awareness of it.  It is not all good.  But sometimes it glimmers through the shadows and I am aware of the presence of others.  People speak of talking to the dead.  I have experienced that.  So, I know that in some way, the spirit of the person outlives the body.  *I do not believe in a physical resurrection of the body and I think scripture agrees with me and Christians don't read what Paul actually wrote!  He said we would have new bodies--spiritual ones*  I have no idea what that existence is like--if it similar to this one or very different.  I think it is very different and there is an awareness that the barrier between this life and that is not solid.  And I have had the sense of relief after death, of lightness and of joy.  What is important, however, is that I think that we all collectively effect each other.  In a decadent society, we are sending that out to each other and feeding off it.  And so, in a very real sense, we have the ability to do good and to do evil.  And thinking is important.  We can commit murder in our hearts, if you will.

I do believe, for example, that prayer can and does effect change and healing.  It isn't what is said, but the intense love we have in our hearts for the person we care for and pray for.  I've said that the most powerful prayers on earth were like the ones said on 9/11.  Most of them were something like, "Oh!  God!"  *But they were too late for some in that instantaneous momentous event!*  But I think a huge wave of love rose up that day and it was powerful.

So, I do believe that in meditation, in solitude and quiet we do get a sense of that other reality.  We perceive it as a pure solid blackness surrounded with a horizon of light--blue light.  Therefore the ancients said that God sat on a sapphire throne.  And the Cabala claimed that God hid behind a black curtain that had *his name* written all over it.  Through this state, we can get a sense of past, present and future events and therefore even of prophecy.  We have believed until quite recently that we could effect the future by what we do in the present.  Philosophy, in trying to deal with creating a structure for our beliefs has been as limited as the conscious human mind has mislead us.  The same goes for theologies that are conceived by people unaware of the greater forces that move the universe and are cobbled together from scriptures written 2,000-3,000 years ago.   Sorry.  A true prophet, if you will recall, can be tested by whether or not his prophecies are true.  On the other hand, no I do not think that prophecy can be extended out too far--not 2,000 years.  I could be wrong.  And there are very few prophets and I do believe it is a skill born of natural ability that is cultivated and so, since we don't cultivate it, we don't have as many.  And most prophecy pertains to that one individual and his immediate present.  We are confused now between psychology and a few inexplicable outcomes of tests on a few extraordinary individuals with psychic abilities.  The ancients had nothing else and a willingness to believe.  So I see religions as envelopes in which to explain truths that are difficult to express and more importantly as a means to cultivate our native spiritual abilities.  It would be necessary and good, for example, to effect a change in the culture of the people to bring about the collective good of the society.  It doesn't matter what envelop you use.  It does matter if you try to cobble them together.  And, since the ancients were more aware of these forces, I think their envelops are better.  And religion is not to prepare ourselves for the future, but to live in the present.  *and I have no more idea of what happens after death than that!  It is just one of those walls that has something on the other side.* 

If you think about dream symbolism, death is not an end but symbolizes the death of some state or vast change in our lives.  I think the "end of the world" is much like this.  It is a time of vast change.  It has happened and it will happen. 

So, to reiterate:  You said: 

I believe that there is something to God. I reject supernatural theism. I am not a deist or pantheist.

I am a panenthiest. 

God for me is being itself. He is reality. He is impersonal as he can not be limited to personality. As humans, we are beings that become aware of the cosmic process and we have awe and reverence for it.

I think its both personal and impersonal.  I see God as a black hole, so powerful that God draws all light into himself.  God is a collective (w)hole, if you will.  *pun intended*

God is somehow this process. I think and my heart wants to believe that we survive death in some way. Moody and Harpur talk about life after death experiences. I reject the Platonic immortality of the soul, and the Christian/Orthodox Jewish resurrection concepts, but I wish to affirm some kind of survival of death. I an reverently agnostic on what this means. Ir we survive death, it is universal for all without reward and punishment.

There are some universal laws recognized by all of the great world religions and by most of the lesser ones.  One of these is some version of, "You reap what you sow."  The good you do comes back to you.  How, I don't exactly know, but I get the sense that if we suffer for it in this life, it is nullified, the debt is paid.  If we learn to love, the debt is paid.  If we are compassionate, the debt is paid.  "Love cancels out innumerable sins."  And this is where faith sans works is a real poison!  Why did Jesus warn us to keep his commandments?  And all boils down to those first two!  And, no, I don't believe in burning in hell, but it is a metaphor to attempt to encourage those less aware to do good in this life for the welfare of all.

*Note:  This is why I study our faith as it was and I don't bother with present day theologies that are stupid and uninformed and actually reflect the human love of intellectual pursuit.  God is no respecter of persons and that means God doesn't care a hoot how smart you are.  I'd say up until science came to be a solid force in religion there was more truth.  And that is why I spend my time trying to mine the depths of their knowledge.  To be more successful, I desperately need to tap the knowledge of the ancient Jews and the Cabala.   But I do believe that the revelation of Jesus Christ is a perfection of that religion and so I can't leave the Gospels behind. 

God's peace.
Annie

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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