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Switch to Forum Live View What is the Vinyard Movement?
7 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2008 - 6:07PM #11
DevoutSeeker
Posts: 5
So Vineyard  is basicly  the same as Pentecostal, But are there any differences in Theology and doctrine and practice?, Thanks.
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2008 - 8:34PM #12
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
[QUOTE=DevoutSeeker;574051]So Vineyard  is basicly  the same as Pentecostal, But are there any differences in Theology and doctrine and practice?, Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Hi DevoutSeeker,
Thanks for asking. Charismatics and Pentecostals have a commonality in that they both believe in the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit. Pertaining to the gift of tongues, specifically, most (but not all) Pentecostals of the Church of God, Holiness and Assemblies of God persuasion, emphasize tongues and believe that it is to be distributed to everyone. But Charismatics generally believe that tongues isn't distributed to everybody.
From my understanding of being surrounded by both Charismatics and Pentecostals, the prophetic gift is sought after moreso with the Charismatics. 1 Cor. 14:1 says to 'Let love be your highest goal, but also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives, especially the gift of prophecy.' (NLT) But that's not to say that tongues isn't important - it is for a lot of reasons. But according to the passage, prophecy seems to supercede tongues.

Also, the aforementioned Pentecostals usually wear formal attire and sing traditional songs with a traditional sound. Charismatics, otoh, in non-denominational and independent churches, (of which Vineyard adheres to a non-denominational standpoint), usually wear casual attire and have contemporary songs to their Worship.

Many mainline liturgical churches are also Charismatic (or Pentecostal).

The term 'Pentecostal' comes from Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers in power on the day of Pentecost when the Church was officially deemed to have begun.

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment.
Smallson, please make any corrections if I made any errors. Thanks.

Thanks again, and have a wonderful day!
With Love and Blessings,
Yvette
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2008 - 11:43PM #13
smallson
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=DevoutSeeker;574051]So Vineyard  is basicly  the same as Pentecostal, But are there any differences in Theology and doctrine and practice?, Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Much of their doctrine is the same, with small differences.What is often very different is their style and emphasis (depending on which Pentecostal churches your comparing them to).

Yvette is correct that Pentecostals emphasize  tongues more.Pentecostals also typicaly believe in the "initial evidence of tounges" doctrine.This teaching sais that tongues is the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit (They typicaly see the infilling of the Holy Spirit as something that happens after salvation or subsequent to it, a seperate experience from that of salvation). The implication is that any Christian who doesn't receive the gift of tongues, hasn't been filled with the Holy Spirit.Vineyard churches don't teach this.They believe it is possible for a person to be filled with the Holy Spirit without receiving the gift of tongues, while accepting  tounges as a gift for the church today.This would be consistent with most Charismatics from mainline churches (eg. Baptist, Anglican, Lutheran, etc).

A few other differences:

1.Pentecostals tend to believe it is a sin to drink alcohol (eg. wine, beer, etc). Vineyard tends to believe it isn't a sin, as long as it is done in moderation.

2.Pentecostals tend to believe a Christian can't be inhabited by demons.The Vineyard seems to believe this is possible.

3.Pentecostals are much more likely to put emphasis on repentance or holiness teaching than the Vineyard, while the Vineyard is more likely to focus on the loving kindness of the Heavenly Father.

4.Pentecostals almost always refer to their pastors by their title, such as Pastor Bob or Pastor Jim. In Vineyard churches, people typicaly address their pastors by their name only.You address them simply as Bob or Jim, etc .They do not put a high value on titles.They  respect their leaders but relate to them as equals.This is probably connected to the Quakers who also reflected this attitude.

One thing both groups share is strong roots in California.

The Pentecostal movement of today was heavily influenced by the Azusa Street Revival in Los Angelas California.(Pentecostals actualy go back before this, but it had an important impact on most of it's history).This early 1900's revival was led by a black American Holiness preacher, where whites and blacks freely worshiped together without segregation (something very controversial at the time).There was also a church that goes back to the late 1800's that became known as "The Church of God In Christ". Being birthed by a black American who eventualy visited the Azusa Street Revival, this denomination would become a major part of the movement.Because of such factors, Pentecostals quite often have fiery or shout style preaching which reflects it's black American and old time Holiness roots.(The Holiness church itself was an outgrowth of the old time Methodist faith).

The Vineyard on the other hand has very white Californian roots, shaped by the more modern hippie-Jesus movement of the late 60's and 70's.Hippie's converted to Christ and worshiped God with rock music, folk and blue jeans.Calvary Chapel (a Evangelical Church that began in California) played an important part in ministering to the hippie generation, and out of this church the Vineyard was birthed.So this is why Vineyard churches tend to have a very laidback dress code in church--blue jeans, t-shirts and the like being very dominant.(Pentecostals also have alot of laidback dressers in some congregations today, but they have much stronger tendencies to dress up for church ).Another shaper of Vineyard style was probably linked to it's Quaker roots, it's most important founder--John Wimber being a former Quaker pastor (an Evangelical Quaker to be precise).Quaker churches (atleast traditionaly) have been known for silence and contemplative prayer.The Vineyard tradition also has contemplative silent prayer (sometimes) and typicaly a very low key-quiet style of preaching.Not shure how much this owes to the Quakers.It seems to me it's atleast a contibuting factor.The typicaly calm preaching style is a huge contrast to some of the Pentecostal shouting, but they sometimes make up for the difference with rocking music.
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 12:37AM #14
smallson
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=butterflynews11;576932]

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment.
Smallson, please make any corrections if I made any errors. Thanks.

Yvette[/QUOTE]

You did pretty good Yvette! Probably the only thing I would tweek a bit is what you said concernig Pentecostal music and dress.

Denominational Pentecostals (eg. Assemblie of God) seem to be the most traditional of Pentecostals.Predictably they almost always have either an acoustic piano, organ or both in the congregation, along with a drum set.But Contemperary music and modern worship is actualy pretty common in Pentecostal churches these days.There's usually a certain amount of the old with the new, to varying degree's.The one I'm familiar with in town used to have alot of gospel hymn piano/organ stuf.But today it's mostly modern worship songs in a contemperary, often rock style.Lots of guitar in an overall contemperary sound, but still keeping the old piano.The one I visited in Newfoundland (earlier this month) was mostly in a more old gospel hymn/old chorus style, with a hint of country & western in the guitar work.Most of the songs were older, but even they included some more current worship songs.It varys from congregation to congregation, but I've yet to be in one of them in current days that didn't have atleast some contemperary songs or style in their repertoire (including Vineyard songs).

Having said that, they do have much stonger leanings toward traditional music than Vineyard.And they certainly are more liklier to dress up in church, though again it varies from church to church.I was one of the rare od balls in the Newfoundland church that wore blue jean and t-shirt/sweater.Virtualy all of them were dressed up in special clothes like suites and dress pants.The one I know in town also has alot of dressed up people in church, but intermingled with alot more informaly dressed.

Anyway, it's getting late and need to get some sleep.See you later!
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 5:48PM #15
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Thanks, Smallson. As usual you're right on! And that's one of the things I really appreciate about you.. you give good, clear, accurate information.
I don't have anything to add except that it's interesting how traditional the sound is with the Churches of God and Assemblies of God (ones that I've been to) as compared to Vineyard, and yet they have worship bands made up of the basic instruments, i.e. an electric guitar, drums, organs or organ/synth keyboards - the latter being more prevalent in Charismatic circles - and the bass. The drums are usually played more low-keyed with basic beats in Pent churches, whereas churche worship bands usually have a soft rock or hard rock beat. The intimate songs can be treated with a traditional sound. A lot of the very early Vineyard slow songs could have easily been played on a general Christian radio station.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason for the low-keyed drumming and repetition (a holding back, if you will) in Pentecostal churches is due to the general belief by that rock music isn't beneficial to ones spiritual life. And if the drummer rocks out, they then feel that the drummer will open some doors to demonic activity.
Charismatics usually have the beliefs of opening up doors to demonic activity, as well, e.g. conducting seances.

Yeah will catch ya later,
Yvette
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7 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2008 - 5:53PM #16
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
correction: '...whereas Charismatic church worship bands usually have a soft rock or hard rock beat.'
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2008 - 10:44PM #17
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Greenponder, are you still with us?
Perhaps my use of the term 'pompous' wasn't the best description. Limited Atonement seems... oh goodness.. what's the word.. Anyway, it's difficult for me to comprehend how God would allow multi-millions, perhaps billions of people, who haven't heard, as well as those who are confined to mental health facilities for the rest of their lives, end up in the lake of fire. If you would, what are some Scriptural references where people are doomed if they don't believe in Jesus in the here and now? (especially with the two examples that I cited) I appreciate it, thanks.

Hope to see you again,
Love,
Yvette
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2008 - 9:31PM #18
smallson
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=butterflynews11;582483]Thanks, Smallson. As usual you're right on! And that's one of the things I really appreciate about you.. you give good, clear, accurate information.
I don't have anything to add except that it's interesting how traditional the sound is with the Churches of God and Assemblies of God (ones that I've been to) as compared to Vineyard, and yet they have worship bands made up of the basic instruments, i.e. an electric guitar, drums, organs or organ/synth keyboards - the latter being more prevalent in Charismatic circles - and the bass. The drums are usually played more low-keyed with basic beats in Pent churches, whereas churche worship bands usually have a soft rock or hard rock beat. The intimate songs can be treated with a traditional sound. A lot of the very early Vineyard slow songs could have easily been played on a general Christian radio station.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason for the low-keyed drumming and repetition (a holding back, if you will) in Pentecostal churches is due to the general belief by that rock music isn't beneficial to ones spiritual life. And if the drummer rocks out, they then feel that the drummer will open some doors to demonic activity.
Charismatics usually have the beliefs of opening up doors to demonic activity, as well, e.g. conducting seances.

Yeah will catch ya later,
Yvette[/QUOTE]

Your words are kind Yvette.I try to give clear accuarate information, though I've messed up different times.I don't always get my information right.

I know what you mean by the low key drumming and holding back that is found in some Pentecostal churches.And I think this can have something to do with the anti-rock thing at times.Certainly in the 1980's, Jimmy Swaggert (who was Assemblies Of God) had an influence over that denomination in that line of thinking.But it only tells part of the story.I've seen both low key drummers (some who actualy like and approve of rock, but afraid to rock it out in church) and drummers who are more free.If you were to visit a variety of COGIC/Church Of God In Christ fellowships (a predominately black American denomination) I don't think you'de see alot of holding back.I'll show you some clips on the music board to demonstrate my point (so things don't go to off the original topic hear).

Have a Grape Night!
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2007 - 3:55PM #19
DAH54
Posts: 3,318
You might find this page helpful; What do Vineyard Churches Believe?.

We believe that there is one Living and True God, eternally existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in power and glory; and that this triune God created all, upholds all and governs all.
We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are the Word of God, fully inspired, without error in the original manuscripts, and the infallible rule of faith and practice.
We believe in God the Father, an infinite, personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love; that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men; that He hears and answers prayer; and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.
We believe in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit. We believe in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles and teaching, His substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people and personal visible return to earth. We believe that in His first coming Jesus inaugurated the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, Who came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower for ministry all who believe in Christ; we believe the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is an abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit and in the exercise of all the Biblical gifts of the Spirit.
We believe that all men are sinners by nature and choice and are therefore under condemnation; and that God regenerates and baptizes by the Holy Spirit those who repent of their sins and confess Jesus Christ as Lord.
We believe in the universal Church, the living spiritual body, of which Christ is the Head and all regenerated persons are members.
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ committed two ordinances to the church: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. We believe in water baptism and communion open to all believers.
We believe also in the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Holy Spirit, for ordination of pastors, elders and deacons, for receiving gifts of the Spirit, and for healing.
We believe in the personal, visible appearing of Christ to each believer and the consummation of His Kingdom, in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment and eternal blessing of the righteous, and endless suffering of the wicked.

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> Dah's User to User Self Support <

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7 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2007 - 4:30PM #20
DAH54
Posts: 3,318
Well I can't speak for all Vineyard churches, my local church is very much into service, they are the ones out during the summer passing out free cans of coke on the street corners. They are the ones passing out free donuts on the weekends. They have gone around to business and offered to clean their toilets. To name just a few of the many things they are involved in within our community. :)

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