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Switch to Forum Live View Who is the "us" and "our"?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 10:05AM #31
57
Posts: 24,464

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:54AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




The verse is Genesis 6:2, and it says bene ha-elohim, "the sons of the gods", just as Genesis 1:2 says "breath of the gods".


If we sincerely intend to find an authentic plural meaning in the references to the divine in Genesis, we have to be consistent in recognizing the plural wherever it occurs.




There is no "s" on the end.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 10:06AM #32
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:52AM, 57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:41AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




Once again, in Hebrew it's ruach, "breath". 


I think it's a pretty big leap from one personal God referring to "my breath" or even "my spirit" as sustaining human life for no more than 120 years to another fully formed, co-equal divine "person".




In Hebrew the word has several menings.  Sometimes it is translated as wind...as in Gen 8:1 And God made a wind blow over the earth.....but you seem to be demanding the word is always breath. 


In the NT, Luke 3:16 talks of the Holy Spirit.  Pneuma is the Greek word used.  It too means Spirit, wind or breath.   The context of the sentance and the meaning tell us which word to use....or are we baptized by the Holy Breath?  Perhaps the Holy Wind?




Yes, 1:2 is usually rendered into English as 'spirit' and sometimes as 'wind', I agree.  The meaning in the original is ambiguous. I like "breath" because it supports the notion that God spoke the universe into existence.  But the point I was making is that elohim is plural.  Your inference that the plural construction elsewhere refers to the Trinity is disproved here.  The plural construction here cannot be not an invocation of the Trintarian Holy Spirit, because that Holy Spirit is autonomous, not a derivative attribute of multiple divine beings. Yet if the plural grammatical form does not carry a plural meaning here, then consistency requires that it also be understood as singular, not plural, throughout the rest of the text.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 10:07AM #33
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:05AM, 57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:54AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




The verse is Genesis 6:2, and it says bene ha-elohim, "the sons of the gods", just as Genesis 1:2 says "breath of the gods".


If we sincerely intend to find an authentic plural meaning in the references to the divine in Genesis, we have to be consistent in recognizing the plural wherever it occurs.




There is no "s" on the end.




On the end of what?  In Hebrew, the plural is usually formed by the suffix -im.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 10:37AM #34
Gacogal
Posts: 1,112

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:54AM, smcisaac wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




The verse is Genesis 6:2, and it says bene ha-elohim, "the sons of the gods", just as Genesis 1:2 says "breath of the gods".


If we sincerely intend to find an authentic plural meaning in the references to the divine in Genesis, we have to be consistent in recognizing the plural wherever it occurs.


smcisaac,


I don't read Hebrew so I have to rely on the translations of others. For this discussion I refer to the Torah as discussed in an on-line Genesis Bible study barrybandstra.com/rtot4/rtot4-04-ch1.htm...


When Elohim began to create heaven and earth, and the earth was untamed and shapeless, and darkness was on the surface of the deep water, and the wind/spirit of Elohim hovering on the surface of the water . . . (1:1–2)


When humanity began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of Elohim saw that the daughters of humanity were good. They took wives for themselves from them as they chose. And Yhwh said, “My spirit shall no longer remain with humanity forever, because they are flesh. His life span will be 120 years.” The fallen ones were on the earth in those days (and also afterward) when the sons of Elohim had intercourse with human daughters and bore offspring for them. They are the warriors, from eternity called the men of a name. (6:1–4)


I don't see where we are in disagreement. There's a slight, but IMO minor, difference between wind/spirit and breathe.


I don't believe "us" and "our" are connected to The Trinity. I believe these pronouns refer to other heavenly beings, ie angels/sons of Elohim, and for those who hold a Unitarian belief (I'm not consigned Uni nor Tri), I respect the inclusion of Jesus.

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. (Proverbs 4:23)
What you say flows from what is in your heart. (Luke 6:45b)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 11:04AM #35
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:37AM, Gacogal wrote:


I don't see where we are in disagreement. There's a slight, but IMO minor, difference between wind/spirit and breathe.


I don't believe "us" and "our" are connected to The Trinity.




We aren't in disagreement with each other.  Both of us disagree with 57 over his (inconsistent, IMHO) interpretation of the plural grammatical references to God that appear in Genesis and elsewhere in the OT.  He chooses a select few, as well as a few mentions of ruach,  and applies them to the Trinity, but conveniently ignores the many others that do not fit.


I believe these pronouns refer to other heavenly beings, ie angels/sons of Elohim,




Well, we disagree a little.  As I said earlier, Elohim is a plural noun and I think the most likely explanation of the use of the plural is also the traditional Jewish and Christian explanation -- that it is an instance of the pluralis maiestatis or majestic plural, used to signify majesty and authority rather than number. It's also possible that it is the vestigial remnant of an older cultural polytheism or henotheism, but if so I don't think it retains any religious significance.  Where God is conversing with other heavenly beings such as angels in the OT, the text is more explicit about it.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 11:33AM #36
Jenandew7
Posts: 13,799

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




If God is Spirit and we are created in his "image" does that mean that God could physically mate with humans? 


I take the "imago dei" to be a bit different, to be our spirit not related to our physical appearance.

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 12:08PM #37
Gacogal
Posts: 1,112

Jun 9, 2013 -- 11:04AM, smcisaac wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:37AM, Gacogal wrote:


I don't see where we are in disagreement. There's a slight, but IMO minor, difference between wind/spirit and breathe.


I don't believe "us" and "our" are connected to The Trinity.




We aren't in disagreement with each other.  Both of us disagree with 57 over his (inconsistent, IMHO) interpretation of the plural grammatical references to God that appear in Genesis and elsewhere in the OT.  He chooses a select few, as well as a few mentions of ruach,  and applies them to the Trinity, but conveniently ignores the many others that do not fit.


I believe these pronouns refer to other heavenly beings, ie angels/sons of Elohim,




Well, we disagree a little.  As I said earlier, Elohim is a plural noun and I think the most likely explanation of the use of the plural is also the traditional Jewish and Christian explanation -- that it is an instance of the pluralis maiestatis or majestic plural, used to signify majesty and authority rather than number. It's also possible that it is the vestigial remnant of an older cultural polytheism or henotheism, but if so I don't think it retains any religious significance.  Where God is conversing with other heavenly beings such as angels in the OT, the text is more explicit about it.


Yes, I've read of the "Royal Plural" as well, and of course that could have been the author's intention, or the Priestly compilers/editors. I probably lean more to the possibility of the Divine Council due to my interest in and reading of gnostic texts. In the GoT, Jesus speaks of the Eternal Godhead and The Parents. Is He somehow referring to what modern Christianity has termed The Trinity, or is it something quite different. It seems clear, at least to me at this time in my journey, that there is some form of Heavenly Hierarchy to which we have not been introduced to in its entirety.

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. (Proverbs 4:23)
What you say flows from what is in your heart. (Luke 6:45b)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 12:25PM #38
Gacogal
Posts: 1,112

Jun 9, 2013 -- 11:33AM, Jenandew7 wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




If God is Spirit and we are created in his "image" does that mean that God could physically mate with humans? 


I take the "imago dei" to be a bit different, to be our spirit not related to our physical appearance.


Yes, I started in post #8, "wouldn't all heavenly beings be spirit?", however the discussion, at least on my part, has become a bit more exploratory due to various scriptures presented. Angels clearly bore offspring with human females, and scriptures do use the terminology "had intercourse", so, are angels "spirit"? Is there more to "in His image" than just our true spirit selfs? Since these angels are described as fallen, did their coupling with humans cause their fall, or made possible by their fall due to a transformation? 


Thoughts?

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. (Proverbs 4:23)
What you say flows from what is in your heart. (Luke 6:45b)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 12:59PM #39
57
Posts: 24,464

Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:06AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:52AM, 57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:41AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




Once again, in Hebrew it's ruach, "breath". 


I think it's a pretty big leap from one personal God referring to "my breath" or even "my spirit" as sustaining human life for no more than 120 years to another fully formed, co-equal divine "person".




In Hebrew the word has several menings.  Sometimes it is translated as wind...as in Gen 8:1 And God made a wind blow over the earth.....but you seem to be demanding the word is always breath. 


In the NT, Luke 3:16 talks of the Holy Spirit.  Pneuma is the Greek word used.  It too means Spirit, wind or breath.   The context of the sentance and the meaning tell us which word to use....or are we baptized by the Holy Breath?  Perhaps the Holy Wind?




Yes, 1:2 is usually rendered into English as 'spirit' and sometimes as 'wind', I agree.  The meaning in the original is ambiguous. I like "breath" because it supports the notion that God spoke the universe into existence.  But the point I was making is that elohim is plural.  Your inference that the plural construction elsewhere refers to the Trinity is disproved here.  The plural construction here cannot be not an invocation of the Trintarian Holy Spirit, because that Holy Spirit is autonomous, not a derivative attribute of multiple divine beings. Yet if the plural grammatical form does not carry a plural meaning here, then consistency requires that it also be understood as singular, not plural, throughout the rest of the text.




In an attempt to make your case...you over complicate things.   God said..Let us.  God was speaking to someone, and I doubt God was talking to himself. 


In the NT we learn that Jesus Christ was the creator.  That's what the bible says.  Many don't like it, but scripture says so.    Because we now know there is a God the Father and a God the Son..both present a creation..as well as the Holy Spirit...It becomes obvious who the "US" is referring to.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2013 - 1:04PM #40
57
Posts: 24,464

Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:07AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 10:05AM, 57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:54AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:45AM, Gacogal wrote:

Jun 9, 2013 -- 9:29AM, 57 wrote:


In Gen 6:3 we once again see the Holy Spirit:


Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."




And this versus also speaks of the sons of Elohim, who must have a shared "image" with mankind since they bore offspring with human women.




The verse is Genesis 6:2, and it says bene ha-elohim, "the sons of the gods", just as Genesis 1:2 says "breath of the gods".


If we sincerely intend to find an authentic plural meaning in the references to the divine in Genesis, we have to be consistent in recognizing the plural wherever it occurs.




There is no "s" on the end.




On the end of what?  In Hebrew, the plural is usually formed by the suffix -im.




Here are a dozen translations of Gen 6:2.  Not one says the sons of godS.  This makes me think you are incorrect. 


In Genesis 1:2...you have the same problem....they all translate different than your version.  Once again this makes me think you are incorrect.

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