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Switch to Forum Live View Has the Son become the Father?
1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 10:14AM #1
Keyfer
Posts: 2,401



This is how I see the history of the relationship of God with man as revealed in scripture. God and man walked together, i.e., they could see and interact with each other as revealed in the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Man, exercising the freedom and rationality that God endowed him with, rebelled against God and lost his desire and ability to see and interact with God. Man created a breach, a gap between himself and God. To bridge the gap, God fathers a son with a willing human mother and by means of a process of regeneration and glorification, the Son becomes fully God, not a separate God but the Father Himself since it is not possible for the Divine Nature to be divided. 


[ Even trinitarians will not go so far as to say that God’s Essence can be divided. ] 


This is prophesied in Isaiah 9:6...the child (son) shall be called Father. 


Now, Jesus Christ is the new Jehovah, if you will. In Jesus’ own words, “if you see me you see the Father” (John 14:7,9). This is how God bridged the gap between Himself and humankind and, imo, is the essence of Christianity. The Holy Spirit is Jesus’ Presence with us and when it is appropriate and useful, Jesus can be seen with a person’s spiritual eyes. God has restored humankind’s relationship with Himself but only with those who willingly forsake evil behavior and adopt heavenly behavior, i.e., keep His commandments which essentially insist on living a loving and just life. 


Revelation 1:8


I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (Jesus?), and which was (Jehovah?), and which is to come, the Almighty.



Revelation 22:13


13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Jehovah?) and the end (Jesus?), the first and the last.




Your thoughts?


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1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 12:52PM #2
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Apr 1, 2013 -- 10:14AM, Keyfer wrote:

This is how I see the history of the relationship of God with man as revealed in scripture. God and man walked together, i.e., they could see and interact with each other as revealed in the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Man, exercising the freedom and rationality that God endowed him with, rebelled against God and lost his desire and ability to see and interact with God. Man created a breach, a gap between himself and God. To bridge the gap, God fathers a son with a willing human mother and by means of a process of regeneration and glorification, the Son becomes fully God, not a separate God but the Father Himself since it is not possible for the Divine Nature to be divided. 


[ Even trinitarians will not go so far as to say that God’s Essence can be divided. ] 


This is prophesied in Isaiah 9:6...the child (son) shall be called Father. 


Now, Jesus Christ is the new Jehovah, if you will. In Jesus’ own words, “if you see me you see the Father” (John 14:7,9). This is how God bridged the gap between Himself and humankind and, imo, is the essence of Christianity. The Holy Spirit is Jesus’ Presence with us and when it is appropriate and useful, Jesus can be seen with a person’s spiritual eyes. God has restored humankind’s relationship with Himself but only with those who willingly forsake evil behavior and adopt heavenly behavior, i.e., keep His commandments which essentially insist on living a loving and just life. 


Revelation 1:8


I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (Jesus?), and which was (Jehovah?), and which is to come, the Almighty.



Revelation 22:13


13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Jehovah?) and the end (Jesus?), the first and the last.




Your thoughts?


Keyfer:  I don't believe Jesus became the Father.  I believe the Father became Jesus (in reality at Bethlehem).  I believe the point of Him becoming the Father in your theology equates to what I call the "proving of the Son" in mine.  However, this proving - ie, the necessary things that had to be done for Him to say "It is finished" -  did not elevate Him to being the Father.  What it did was allow the Father to go through the process all of us humans have to go through (from birth to death) so that He could become our Savior in flesh.  That is, God the Father subjected Himself to the limitations of humanity and lived the life He expeced man to live from the start.  He had to do that in order to fulfill the Law, claim the keys of death and hell, etc, etc.  All those things MAN had lost, He regained by becoming human and fulfilling the requirements to get those things back. The Father did that as the Son.  The Son never had to become the Father.  The Father condescended to become the Son.  When He fulfilled all things, a human being - the Father manifested in flesh - then had all power and authority.  And at some point, that Son-ship will no longer be necessary, as your posts about 1 Cor 15 show.  God will once again be all-in-all....as a human being who is God


I'll stop there.  Gotta run, but is a good point to see what you think.  :)

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 5:49PM #3
Keyfer
Posts: 2,401

Apr 1, 2013 -- 12:52PM, OneGodApostolic wrote:


Apr 1, 2013 -- 10:14AM, Keyfer wrote:

This is how I see the history of the relationship of God with man as revealed in scripture. God and man walked together, i.e., they could see and interact with each other as revealed in the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Man, exercising the freedom and rationality that God endowed him with, rebelled against God and lost his desire and ability to see and interact with God. Man created a breach, a gap between himself and God. To bridge the gap, God fathers a son with a willing human mother and by means of a process of regeneration and glorification, the Son becomes fully God, not a separate God but the Father Himself since it is not possible for the Divine Nature to be divided. 


[ Even trinitarians will not go so far as to say that God’s Essence can be divided. ] 


This is prophesied in Isaiah 9:6...the child (son) shall be called Father. 


Now, Jesus Christ is the new Jehovah, if you will. In Jesus’ own words, “if you see me you see the Father” (John 14:7,9). This is how God bridged the gap between Himself and humankind and, imo, is the essence of Christianity. The Holy Spirit is Jesus’ Presence with us and when it is appropriate and useful, Jesus can be seen with a person’s spiritual eyes. God has restored humankind’s relationship with Himself but only with those who willingly forsake evil behavior and adopt heavenly behavior, i.e., keep His commandments which essentially insist on living a loving and just life. 


Revelation 1:8


I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (Jesus?), and which was (Jehovah?), and which is to come, the Almighty.



Revelation 22:13


13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Jehovah?) and the end (Jesus?), the first and the last.




Your thoughts?


Keyfer:  I don't believe Jesus became the Father.  I believe the Father became Jesus (in reality at Bethlehem).  I believe the point of Him becoming the Father in your theology equates to what I call the "proving of the Son" in mine.  However, this proving - ie, the necessary things that had to be done for Him to say "It is finished" -  did not elevate Him to being the Father.  What it did was allow the Father to go through the process all of us humans have to go through (from birth to death) so that He could become our Savior in flesh.  That is, God the Father subjected Himself to the limitations of humanity and lived the life He expeced man to live from the start.  He had to do that in order to fulfill the Law, claim the keys of death and hell, etc, etc.  All those things MAN had lost, He regained by becoming human and fulfilling the requirements to get those things back. The Father did that as the Son.  The Son never had to become the Father.  The Father condescended to become the Son.  When He fulfilled all things, a human being - the Father manifested in flesh - then had all power and authority.  And at some point, that Son-ship will no longer be necessary, as your posts about 1 Cor 15 show.  God will once again be all-in-all....as a human being who is God


I'll stop there.  Gotta run, but is a good point to see what you think.  :)





Yes, as I understand what you are saying, the Father initiated and accomplished the whole process and the result is that Father and Son are One Divine Person, not two.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 9:26PM #4
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,940

How do either of you explain John 20


“…. go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God….”


Is Jesus his own Father and God?

Wise men still seek him.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 10:13PM #5
Jenandew7
Posts: 12,328

No.  Jesus did not become the Father.  Nor did the Father become Jesus.  This is impossible.


Jesus is the Son of God, the Father. 


If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 01, 2013 - 10:22PM #6
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,940

Keyfer; “… the Son becomes fully God, not a separate God but the Father Himself since it is not possible for the Divine Nature to be divided….


Do you have any idea how unbiblical that is?


"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature…” 2Peter 1



If we are to be partakers of the divine nature then why can’t “the Divine Nature” be found in two different beings?



It just seems to me you have to bend all logic to come to you’re conclusions.


Why can’t it just be there is one divine God and Father of all eternal spirits and one Son “the beginning of the creation of God” , “by whom also he made the worlds”


What is so hard to understand about that?


“God/El….Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son/Yahweh, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high…”


Why is it ya all just can’t believe what is written there. William Barclay translates that passage;


“ He is the exact impression of his being, just as the mark is the exact impression of the seal”


That doesn’t mean he is the seal but a copy of the seal.


Keyfer you wrote; To bridge the gap, God fathers a son with a willing human mother and by means of a process of regeneration and glorification, the Son becomes fully God,…


Why not think of it as a cloning, God the Father took a particle of his own self and had the Holy Spirit place it inside of Mary’s womb, perhaps mixing it with her dna so that the Son was truly both divine and human at the same time. The Spirit/Yahweh entered this half human and half divine body to become Jesus.


God the Father, God the Son/the spirit Yahweh and God the Holy Spirit are three separate beings with the later two bowing their wills to the Father’s will, so that they are one in purpose and power.

Wise men still seek him.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 02, 2013 - 2:32AM #7
Keyfer
Posts: 2,401

Apr 1, 2013 -- 9:26PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


How do either of you explain John 20


“…. go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God….”


Is Jesus his own Father and God?





This was before His glorification, at which time, the human nature from us was being regenerated. Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He spoke of His Father and prayed to Him and when He spoke the words that you quoted from John 20. When He ascended to the Father to sit “at His right hand” (symbolic language that signifies equality), He and the Father became One Person. Now, Jesus is the one God of heaven and earth. That is why He states...



Revelation 1:8


I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



Revelation 22:13


13  I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



In the above 2 verses, Jehovah, the one and only God from eternity was speaking but He was speaking as Jesus Christ. 


The process that God accomplished by incarnating His Word (not a separate Person from Himself) to produce a human with both a human nature and a Divine Soul is not a simple process and requires some meditating upon and praying about. The purpose was to reconcile humankind to Himself by coming to teach us and to show us by His actions how we must start living in order to begin preparing ourselves for life in heaven. If you can manage to lay aside the ideas that God is angry and wants vengeance, is 3 separate People and that one of them came to take our guilt upon Himself by becoming a human, blood sacrifice, you may be able to see what I am trying to describe. I can see it clearly but am having a difficult time putting it into words.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 02, 2013 - 3:16AM #8
Keyfer
Posts: 2,401

Apr 1, 2013 -- 10:13PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


No.  Jesus did not become the Father.  Nor did the Father become Jesus.  This is impossible.


Jesus is the Son of God, the Father. 





If I think about the nature of the relationship of a branch (me) with its vine (God), I can understand that the life that I feel as my own is not my own and never will be, I can see that I am a receptacle of God’s life, a stewart, not an owner.


 [ Like the branch dies if separated from its vine, I die if separated from God because life is God’s, not mine. ]


 The case with Jesus is different, God was His Father while I had a human father. Jesus’ Father is LIFE, my father was a recipient of LIFE. However, Jesus also had a human mother and, therefore, a human nature which had to be dealt with. Jesus had to undergo regeneration just like each of us does. 


When God in Jesus was finished putting off what was not Divine in Jesus and making Divine that which was not put off (by the process of regeneration), the result was the glorification of Jesus Christ, i.e., the melding or conjunction of Jehovah and Jesus into One Divine Human Person. 


In short, I believe that the two natures in Jesus did become one via a gradual process, the result of which is your last statement, “Jesus is the son of God, the Father” as prophesied in Isaiah 9:6.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 02, 2013 - 7:46AM #9
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Apr 1, 2013 -- 5:49PM, Keyfer wrote:

Yes, as I understand what you are saying, the Father initiated and accomplished the whole process and the result is that Father and Son are One Divine Person, not two.


Correct.  Smile

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 02, 2013 - 7:49AM #10
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Apr 1, 2013 -- 9:26PM, withwonderingawe wrote:


How do either of you explain John 20


“…. go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God….”


Is Jesus his own Father and God?


I think the better questions is "How can God (the Son) have a God?"  Or, why does God (the Son) have need of a God? 




 

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