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2 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2012 - 12:16PM #1
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,866
Just curious. With all the shootings theres been a few pasters killed this year sadly are any churches considring security guards to hire for the church?I know about 7 years ago I went back and visited our old Baptist church which is jow a big huge church and when I went in to my surprise I had two young people greet me and I knw there are greeters at alot of churches but these greeters escorted me to my seat, I assume thats theyre way of having secirity and that was 7 years ago so. Just curious if anyone at church is talking about it, It scares me.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2012 - 6:09PM #2
Theo
Posts: 4,691

I think most Churches do not use security... as in armed ushers.


However, I was once part of a mega-Church that did have armed ushers, whose job it was to provide security for the offering. They also had greeters who were unarmed, however, they did provide security for the parking lot during and after services.


Personally, I believe in non-violence, and do not believe in killing people, therefore guns are out of the question as far as I am concerned. I think it would be an extremely poor testimony, on the part of any Church, to have their security people or ushers blow away somebody, even if they came into the Church intent on bodily harming the pastor, or "God forbid" shooting up the kids in Sunday School. Believe it or not, such things happen all the time in Churches around the world... especially where Islamists are a presence to be reckoned with.


Jesus taught us to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek and to not resist evil, but bless those who curse us, and do good to those who spitefully abuse us. Therefore I believe it is better to be killed than to kill someone else. Killing others in self-defense is only natural, but God has called us to walk in the Spirit and put no confidence in the flesh; so for me, killing other people is out of the question. Had the early Church followed the natural principles of self-defense, it is likely that Saul of Tarsus would not have lived to become St. Paul.


For Churches that feel a need to beef up their security to protect their offering - I think there are better ways of dealing with that than arming the ushers. Going without a public offering, and simply asking Church members to give their tithes and offerings electronically over the Internet, or through the mail would be one very effective way of making the Church less of a target.


As for providing security so insecure people feel more secure in Church - I think that is an issue our federal, state and local governments should look into. Providing for the national defense is the job of the Federal Government, so is it too much to ask the State and local governments to provide security for the general population when they exercise their constitutional rights to assembly?  


I understand that most public and private events provide security at a cost to those sponsoring the events, which in turn gets passed onto the participants in the form of ticket prices. But Christianity has never sold tickets for worship services, and most Churches have never had to hire security guards to keep the peace during their meetings. We come together in peace and "pass the peace" worshipping the God of peace. It would be completely in appropriate to preach the Prince of Peace on the one hand, and carry big guns behind smiling-faced ushers.  


I think we are all scared after the latest school shooting, but before I would look for Churches to arm their ushers and greeters, we need to consider the reasons why these things keep happening. Guns are an easy target, pun intended, but I still think most gun owners do not get it. Crazy killers are walking among us looking for guns to steal... criminals are lurking in the dark, armed to the teeth, looking for homes to bust in, cars to jack and banks and stores to rob. Arming the general populous against bad guys is therefore not a reasonable or viable solution - disarming crazy people, criminals and gangsters is the only logical course of action to me. Our national accessibility to guns is one part of the problem, the News Media is the other part of the problem. The more the Media focuses our attention on these things, the greater likelihood other crazy people will dream up similar shootings and massacres.  It only makes sense to me, that if you want to flip off the whole world and go out with a bang, all you gotta do to succeed is best the last guy to go nuts and kill everybody... the News Media will do the rest and make you famous.  


So my solution would be to start limiting the scope the Media is allowed to use in publishing these kinds of tragedies. Keeping this kind of thing local would go along way toward keeping fear from gripping the whole nation. And secondly, passing rational legislation to remove public ownership and access to guns would be my next step towards creating a better world. Sadly, both of these ideas would infringe upon current interpretations of the first and second amendments of the US Constitution.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2012 - 2:11PM #3
Jenandew7
Posts: 13,294

Dec 27, 2012 -- 12:16PM, rideronthastorm wrote:

Just curious. With all the shootings theres been a few pasters killed this year sadly are any churches considring security guards to hire for the church?I know about 7 years ago I went back and visited our old Baptist church which is jow a big huge church and when I went in to my surprise I had two young people greet me and I knw there are greeters at alot of churches but these greeters escorted me to my seat, I assume thats theyre way of having secirity and that was 7 years ago so. Just curious if anyone at church is talking about it, It scares me.



First, let me just say that fear should be unknown in faith, "perfect love casts out all fear."  It actually keeps it from our objective, so attempt to recognize and bannish all fear thoughts.  :)


I don't think that it is good to have guns in the church.  It does not reflect our hope.  Remember, in early Christianity, people hoped to become martyrs,  to die for the faith.  Again, have no fear because life is eternal and our hope is in God.


And like Theo I think the media has something to do with the spread of violence.  I noticed that a book on Columbine had just been released shortly before these school shootings in NJ.


A. 

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2012 - 4:38PM #4
Want to know
Posts: 1,673

Theo, I like what you said and I completely agree.

"Now we see as through a glass, darkly but then face to face:  now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."  I Corinthians 13:12
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2012 - 5:17PM #5
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,162

Just a question, as the wife of a gun collector-


Didn't the perpetrator in this case steal his mom's gun, a gun that she bought legally and went through the background checks, etc needed? Someone who is going to shoot up a school isn't likely to pay attention to the law anyway.


I personally wouldn't mind stricter gun control laws, particularly if that can help keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.The laws here in Georgia and IIRC my home state of North Carolina already have measures for this. However, that wouldn't have helped in this case.


As for church security, I think I would feel really uncomfortable with armed ushers. Isn't church supposed to be a sanctuary, a place to put the cares of the world behind us and focus on God? I would feel that a church that employs armed ushers would be taking away from that.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2012 - 8:09PM #6
rideronthastorm
Posts: 5,866

On the other hand as crime goes up so do the members of second LIFE CHURCH VIRTUAL WORLD that has Christian churches there where you can get on the net at home and go to church. Although many of us are sick or dont have transportation I feel rest assured some do avoid crime and assualts by staying at home on the computer instead of going to church mny church membberships have gone down.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2012 - 9:09PM #7
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Dec 28, 2012 -- 5:17PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


Just a question, as the wife of a gun collector-


Didn't the perpetrator in this case steal his mom's gun, a gun that she bought legally and went through the background checks, etc needed? Someone who is going to shoot up a school isn't likely to pay attention to the law anyway.




Yeah; that's what happened.


The guy actually failed his own personal background check, and so he stole his mom's guns.


In other words, the gun laws actually worked in this case.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2012 - 3:06PM #8
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,162

They did in a sense...while he failed his own background check, he still had access to a gun because of his mom's passed background check.  One law kept a gun out of his hands, but he got one anyway. Stricter laws wouldn't have prevented him stealing his mother's legally-gotten gun or from shooting people, because a person who is going to shoot up a school isn't going to pay attention to the law anyway.


I'm all for laws that can help keep guns away from crazy people, but I'm not naive enough to think that someone who is truly hell-bent on committing a crime isn't going to find some other way to do it.  Maybe not on this scale, but still. What I *am* naive enough to think, though, is that this might have been prevented had his mental health issues been more readily addressed.


Anyway, that's sort of a 'side subject' from church security. I apologize for the tangent.



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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2012 - 3:12PM #9
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,162

Dec 28, 2012 -- 8:09PM, rideronthastorm wrote:


On the other hand as crime goes up so do the members of second LIFE CHURCH VIRTUAL WORLD that has Christian churches there where you can get on the net at home and go to church. Although many of us are sick or dont have transportation I feel rest assured some do avoid crime and assualts by staying at home on the computer instead of going to church mny church membberships have gone down.




...and this is sad, because one would think that church would be one of the few places that a person *can* go and be safe. I guess some people don't have that luxury, though.


I'm just using your post as a jumping-off point, not attacking you.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2012 - 4:36PM #10
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Dec 29, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


...and this is sad, because one would think that church would be one of the few places that a person *can* go and be safe. I guess some people don't have that luxury, though.


I'm just using your post as a jumping-off point, not attacking you.




The building where I go has been vandalized, entered, and even desecrated so often that the cops are on speed dial. And one congregation where one of my brothers used to attend had people barge on in one Sunday in the hopes of disrupting services. Heck, there have even been arson attempts and even an anthrax scare at some LDS facilities.


Yeah - it's a lot worse out there than some people realize.


And people wonder why I carry a tactical knife to church...




As far as the shooter goes, I recall seeing somewhere that he *might* have done what he did because his mother was looking to have him institutionalized.


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