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2 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:03AM #1
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158
I'm curious as to how one who believes in the trinity views God.  Is God a person like the 3 persons that are God?  Is God a nebulous concept, a non-being that embodies the essence in the 3 persons?  Is God made up of the 3 persons or is God in the 3 persons?  If God is in 3 persons, does the One in those 3 persons have a personality of his own?

Those are just some of the questions I have, though they may not even be the right questions for you if you choose to respond.  My thoughts center around the term God.  The Bible calls God a He, not a Them, so I have a hard time picturing what a trinitarian views God as.  What image comes to your mind?  Maybe that's the best way to answer.  Or, maybe you have another answer.

Thanks!
OGA
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 7:12PM #2
Want to know
Posts: 1,670

Nov 15, 2012 -- 10:03AM, OneGodApostolic wrote:

I'm curious as to how one who believes in the trinity views God.  Is God a person like the 3 persons that are God?  Is God a nebulous concept, a non-being that embodies the essence in the 3 persons?  Is God made up of the 3 persons or is God in the 3 persons?  If God is in 3 persons, does the One in those 3 persons have a personality of his own?

Those are just some of the questions I have, though they may not even be the right questions for you if you choose to respond.  My thoughts center around the term God.  The Bible calls God a He, not a Them, so I have a hard time picturing what a trinitarian views God as.  What image comes to your mind?  Maybe that's the best way to answer.  Or, maybe you have another answer.

Thanks!
OGA


All this blows my mind so I don't give it much though. I see God as Spirit and this Spirit can best be seen in Jesus. I don't think one has to understand any more than that. I only try to follow Jesus. I hope someone can give you a better answer. It's a good question.

"Now we see as through a glass, darkly but then face to face:  now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."  I Corinthians 13:12
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 9:03PM #3
five_point_dad
Posts: 3,408

Nov 15, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Want to know wrote:

Nov 15, 2012 -- 10:03AM, OneGodApostolic wrote:

I'm curious as to how one who believes in the trinity views God.  Is God a person like the 3 persons that are God?  Is God a nebulous concept, a non-being that embodies the essence in the 3 persons?  Is God made up of the 3 persons or is God in the 3 persons?  If God is in 3 persons, does the One in those 3 persons have a personality of his own?

Those are just some of the questions I have, though they may not even be the right questions for you if you choose to respond.  My thoughts center around the term God.  The Bible calls God a He, not a Them, so I have a hard time picturing what a trinitarian views God as.  What image comes to your mind?  Maybe that's the best way to answer.  Or, maybe you have another answer.

Thanks!
OGA


All this blows my mind so I don't give it much though. I see God as Spirit and this Spirit can best be seen in Jesus. I don't think one has to understand any more than that. I only try to follow Jesus. I hope someone can give you a better answer. It's a good question.


   God is one essence existing as three persons.  One of the difficulties with understanding the Trinity is the fact that there is no model upon the earth that corresponds to it.  We can build models of the solar system to explain how it functions and we can draw pictures of galaxies, but there is no representation of the Trinity in our world.  I'm not sure this answers your question. 

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 15, 2012 - 10:29PM #4
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,208

Nov 15, 2012 -- 9:03PM, five_point_dad wrote:

Nov 15, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Want to know wrote:


Nov 15, 2012 -- 10:03AM, OneGodApostolic wrote:

I'm curious as to how one who believes in the trinity views God.  Is God a person like the 3 persons that are God?  Is God a nebulous concept, a non-being that embodies the essence in the 3 persons?  Is God made up of the 3 persons or is God in the 3 persons?  If God is in 3 persons, does the One in those 3 persons have a personality of his own?

Those are just some of the questions I have, though they may not even be the right questions for you if you choose to respond.  My thoughts center around the term God.  The Bible calls God a He, not a Them, so I have a hard time picturing what a trinitarian views God as.  What image comes to your mind?  Maybe that's the best way to answer.  Or, maybe you have another answer.

Thanks!
OGA


All this blows my mind so I don't give it much though. I see God as Spirit and this Spirit can best be seen in Jesus. I don't think one has to understand any more than that. I only try to follow Jesus. I hope someone can give you a better answer. It's a good question.




   God is one essence existing as three persons.  One of the difficulties with understanding the Trinity is the fact that there is no model upon the earth that corresponds to it.  We can build models of the solar system to explain how it functions and we can draw pictures of galaxies, but there is no representation of the Trinity in our world.  I'm not sure this answers your question. 




www.planetperplex.com/en/item/godel-esch...


Here is something I have long associated with the Trinity.


It was the illustration for a useless book, but the picture is interesting.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 12:49AM #5
Theo
Posts: 4,687

Is God a person like the 3 persons that are God? 


Your question does not make any sense to me. Trinitarians believe in One God, who exists as three separate Persons, They are both individually and collectively - God. That means that we believe the Father is God, as to His nature, and therefore, so also the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet we do not have three God's, but One God.


Is God a nebulous concept, a non-being that embodies the essence in the 3 persons? 


I guess that might depend upon who you're talking to, my concept of God does not make Him out to be a nebulous  non-being. Wants to know's concept sounded rather nebulous - no offense intended.


Is God made up of the 3 persons or is God in the 3 persons? 


We believe God exists in three Persons. Thus we believe that God is our Father in heaven, and we believe Jesus Christ existed in heaven together with the Father - from eternity. But unlike Mormons, who believe the Father and the Son are two separate gods, we believe that They are One God.


Exactly how this works is hard to explain, I wish I could explain it better, but frankly every construct of God and Christ has it's inscrutable point of faith. In this respect Modalism is no different... in Oneness Constructs of God and Jesus, they have to account for the obvious relationship depicted in Scripture, between the Father and the Son. In order to do this, they borrow from Trinitarian theology... and call it the duel-nature of Christ. So when Jesus is talking to God, He is speaking as a man, but when He is giving commandments, He is talking as God. Thus according to Oneness teachers, Jesus was both a Man, and God, at the same time. The problem with this idea is self-evident... it means that Jesus was two people, a Person of God indwelling a Human being, with a separate will and intellect.


The Bishops of the Church Councils warned against confusing the Persons of God and dividing the substance of God... and they were speaking directly against Arians and Modalists. Arians divide the essence of God into a BIG God and a Little god. And Modalists confuse the Persons of God, (by not distinguishing between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and they divide the essence of God, making Jesus into two persons - God and Man.


If God is in 3 persons, does the One in those 3 persons have a personality of his own?


I think your having a little  fun with our words... there is no such Person behind the three Persons of God in Trinitarian theology; that idea is closer to how Modalists conceive of God than Trinitarians... with One God acting in different roles or holding difference offices.  


John 15:26-27 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.  And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 17:20-22 >  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.


Note the plural pronoun - "Us" is a first person plural, and it refers to the Father and the Son. In fact the whole chapter demonstrates the subject object relationship between Jesus and God - the Father.


My thoughts center around the term God.  The Bible calls God a He, not a Them, so I have a hard time picturing what a trinitarian views God as. 


 Actually the Bible uses both singular and plural pronouns to refer to God... and so do Trinitarians. Even Jesus used plural pronouns referring to God and Himself, when He was explaining to His disciples that He was going to go away, and would send the Holy Spirit to live inside them.


So when Trinitarians read the word God in the Bible, and it uses singular pronouns in reference to God, we try to understand which Person of God it was referring to. Sometimes God, in the OT, refers to the Son, sometimes the Father, and sometime the Holy Spirit. Some time it can easily refer to all three Persons of God. Consider these examples...


Ps 110:1-2 >  The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!


In this prophecy about Jesus, the LORD is Jehovah God, (or YHVH if you prefer) thus God the Father is speaking to Jesus - David's Lord.


I am curious, does this passage cause problems for you? Here we have the One God speaking to the Man - Jesus. Are you comfortable, believing in the Oneness of God, reading passages with God speaking directly to Jesus? I mean if Jesus is the One true God - why is He speaking to Himself?


Or how about this passage... Gen 1:1-5 > In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light;" and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.


As a Trinitarian, I believe that Jesus created the heavens and the earth, and I believe God created all things . Thus Jesus we believe Jesus is the Person of God who said, "Let there be light!" and together with the Holy Spirit was the God of Creation.


And then consider this passage... Gen 1:26-28  > Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


If there is no plurality of Persons in God, than who was the US - first person plural pronoun??? Unlike human beings, who are multifaceted yet singular personalities, I believe God is a multifasited plurality of Persons - three to be exact, three Persons, one God.


What image comes to your mind?  Maybe that's the best way to answer.  Or, maybe you have another answer.


Well in the Bible God said... Deut 5:8-9 > 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.


God does not want us to conjure up an image of Him, and Scripture speaks like this: 1 Tim 1:17 > Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Col 1:15-16 > He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.


God proper = the Father Almighty is invisible to mortal men. Jesus Christ, as the Word of God and as God the Son, is the express image of the Invisible God = namely the Father. Thus the Scriptures say... 2 Cor 4:6 >  For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


I believe God manifests Himself as radiant light; and that the angels who gaze on the throne of God see the glorious light of God's presence... and the only image to be seen, is the bodily manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ seated on the Throne.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:29AM #6
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Nov 15, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Want to know wrote:


 All this blows my mind so I don't give it much though. I see God as Spirit and this Spirit can best be seen in Jesus. I don't think one has to understand any more than that. I only try to follow Jesus. I hope someone can give you a better answer. It's a good question.



Thanks for the response!  I totally agree with your 2nd sentence, adding that God can only be seen in Jesus Christ. 


I totally disagree with your third sentence.  I think God expects more of us in this matter.  I think He desires more of us in this matter.  And, He is certainly capable of revealing Himself to the finite minds of men who seek this knowledge. 


We are all at different points in our walk with Him, so we all probably feel differently about this.  But, I believe with all my heart that God wants to be known in detail, and that's one of the reason He came to earth and became like one of us.  :)

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:36AM #7
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Nov 15, 2012 -- 9:03PM, five_point_dad wrote:

God is one essence existing as three persons.  One of the difficulties with understanding the Trinity is the fact that there is no model upon the earth that corresponds to it.  We can build models of the solar system to explain how it functions and we can draw pictures of galaxies, but there is no representation of the Trinity in our world.  I'm not sure this answers your question. 



I agree that there is no model or analogy that suffices completely in defining this subject, and that's why I have almost quit using them.  ;)


However, this is a good start.  You said God is one essence.  Is this essence manifested in these three persons or is it (for lack of a better word) divided into these three persons?  I'm trying to get at what "God" becomes if all 3 persons are God.  Is God a conglomeration of the three?  He surely can't be a fourth person that is "made up of" the other three.  It's really hard to ask this in a clear way, but if you will suffer me I'd like to muddle through it.


Is God unipersonal?  Is God defined by a make up of the three persons or is God a non-personal entity that is found in the three persons? 


Sorry, but I keep thinking of questions as I am about to close.  Maybe one of those will strike a cord?  Thanks!

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:37AM #8
Want to know
Posts: 1,670

Theo, I was not offended by you saying my description of God was "nebulous". My post was a simple response from a simple man who doesn't use words you have to look up in the dictionary. Kiss

"Now we see as through a glass, darkly but then face to face:  now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."  I Corinthians 13:12
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 9:42AM #9
Want to know
Posts: 1,670

Nov 16, 2012 -- 9:36AM, OneGodApostolic wrote:


Nov 15, 2012 -- 9:03PM, five_point_dad wrote:

God is one essence existing as three persons.  One of the difficulties with understanding the Trinity is the fact that there is no model upon the earth that corresponds to it.  We can build models of the solar system to explain how it functions and we can draw pictures of galaxies, but there is no representation of the Trinity in our world.  I'm not sure this answers your question. 



I agree that there is no model or analogy that suffices completely in defining this subject, and that's why I have almost quit using them.  ;)


However, this is a good start.  You said God is one essence.  Is this essence manifested in these three persons or is it (for lack of a better word) divided into these three persons?  I'm trying to get at what "God" becomes if all 3 persons are God.  Is God a conglomeration of the three?  He surely can't be a fourth person that is "made up of" the other three.  It's really hard to ask this in a clear way, but if you will suffer me I'd like to muddle through it.


Is God unipersonal?  Is God defined by a make up of the three persons or is God a non-personal entity that is found in the three persons? 


Sorry, but I keep thinking of questions as I am about to close.  Maybe one of those will strike a cord?  Thanks!



Not my post that you quoted but thanks anyhow, it made me look smart.

"Now we see as through a glass, darkly but then face to face:  now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."  I Corinthians 13:12
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2012 - 10:04AM #10
OneGodApostolic
Posts: 158

Nov 16, 2012 -- 12:49AM, Theo wrote:

Your question does not make any sense to me. Trinitarians believe in One God, who exists as three separate Persons, They are both individually and collectively - God. That means that we believe the Father is God, as to His nature, and therefore, so also the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet we do not have three God's, but One God.


~ Theophilus



Sorry to neglect the rest of your post, but your opening statement is a classic example of the reason I've asked this.  btw, if you'd like me to address all of your questions regarding my beliefs, you can start another thread or go to the Pentecostal Oneness area.  I left you a message there a few days back.  I think it was you, anyway.  :)


Ok, this is what you said:  "One God, who".  When you use the pronoun "who", you give God personality, you make Him a singular being, right?  If not, why not.  If so and if God (a who) is three persons, then does the who refer to all 3 persons or to one singular being/person/entity/essence, etc?


The way I view the trinity is that "God" becomes a non-person or a non-personality and is just (for lack of a better term) a concept (essence?) that is in the three persons.  God is no longer a He, but an It.  And that "it" is in 3 persons.


Again, sorry for the lack of better questioning and/or explanation.  But, as I discuss this it seems to become a little clearer.  So, suffer me the muddling if you will.  :)

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