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Switch to Forum Live View Are We Still Living By This Verse (Matthew 10:33)?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 3:31PM #1
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33


Is power more important than faith...Are we inclined to overlook non-christian values if it means worldly power and lots of dollars?


God is watching and listening to us and when we publically send a message to the world that JESUS is not the PREREQUISITE in determining our loyalty; we are saying that we are not that into HIM.
      
An article in [christianitytoday] caused me to stop and wonder...what is happening to Christians? 

What say you?
Or, am I the only one willing to ask (if I suspect someone to be an imposter)...IS JESUS YOUR SAVIOR, YOUR ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN?
 Jesus said: "I am the way the truth and the life"


Cry


 
 
"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 3:58PM #2
smcisaac
Posts: 7,916

What do you think he meant by "deny me"?


How does that square with Matthew 11:27, where he says, "No one knows the Son except the Father"?

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 4:28PM #3
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Jun 25, 2012 -- 3:58PM, smcisaac wrote:


What do you think he meant by "deny me"?



Jesus was saying that the day would come (after His resurrection) when His position would be to plead to the Father for us (mediate). Those who refuse to openly acknowledge that Jesus is their Savior...He will not plead to the Father for them when they sin.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 3:58PM, smcisaac wrote:


How does that square with Matthew 11:27, where he says, "No one knows the Son except the Father"?




Compare Matthew 11:27 with John 14:6. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."





 

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 4:38PM #4
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Sin causes us to weigh ourselves down with guilt. I'm always relieved when the Holy Spirit points out the flaws in my life;...sometimes I don't even know that I'm in spiritual danger (although I'm not alway thrilled when I'm called on...the spiritual carpet); I am however glad that Jesus knows my heart. Life can be difficult (in many ways) for those who know Jesus and yet ignores or rejects HIM.


   

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 9:33PM #5
smcisaac
Posts: 7,916

The Greek word that is rendered "deny" in the KJV is arneomai, which means to contradict, reject, disavow, or abnegate. Especially since right afterward, in Matthew 11, Jesus goes on to say that only the Father fully understands (epiginosko) the Son, I think it is reading too much into the text to suppose that it requires the affirmation of specific Christological doctrines that were not even fully developed until centuries later.  I think it means only that those who disavow or contradict Jesus's teachings will in turn find their own beliefs refuted by him, with the Father's approval, but not necessarily that those who fail to embrace specific dogmas or recite standard formulas (such as "Jesus is my Savior") about the nature of the Son will be eternally rejected by the Father. 


Scholars think Matthew's gospel was probably written for a Jewish audience, and it makes sense to me that Matthew would emphasize here (as he does elsewhere) the superiority of Jesus's generous and compassionate interpretation of Jewish scripture and tradition over some of the more rigid, legalistic practices and interpretations of some of the Pharisees and other Jewish factions.


(I think you are also reading meaning into the "through me" or "by me" of John 14:6 that goes well beyond what the text actually implies, but a critical exegesis of John and his distinctive theology is beyond the scope of this discussion.)

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 2:43PM #6
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,158

voice-crying:  God is watching and listening to us and when we publically send a message to the world that JESUS is not the PREREQUISITE in determining our loyalty; we are saying that we are not that into HIM.


Are you Jewish?  If not, Jesus wasn't all that into YOU.  Hell, I'm a gentile woman.  My reward for wanting Jesus' salvation, according to how it went down with that gentile woman with the sick kid, would be to be called a "dog" (think the "b" word, rhymes with witch).


Sin causes us to weigh ourselves down with guilt.


I completely disagree.  Guilt is only for those who desire to do the right thing anyway.  Sociopaths don't care thus aren't weighed down by sin at all.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 5:19PM #7
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Jun 25, 2012 -- 9:33PM, smcisaac wrote:


The Greek word that is rendered "deny" in the KJV is arneomai, which means to contradict, reject, disavow, or abnegate. Especially since right afterward, in Matthew 11, Jesus goes on to say that only the Father fully understands (epiginosko) the Son, I think it is reading too much into the text to suppose that it requires the affirmation of specific Christological doctrines that were not even fully developed until centuries later.  I think it means only that those who disavow or contradict Jesus's teachings will in turn find their own beliefs refuted by him, with the Father's approval, but not necessarily that those who fail to embrace specific dogmas or recite standard formulas (such as "Jesus is my Savior") about the nature of the Son will be eternally rejected by the Father. 


Scholars think Matthew's gospel was probably written for a Jewish audience, and it makes sense to me that Matthew would emphasize here (as he does elsewhere) the superiority of Jesus's generous and compassionate interpretation of Jewish scripture and tradition over some of the more rigid, legalistic practices and interpretations of some of the Pharisees and other Jewish factions.


(I think you are also reading meaning into the "through me" or "by me" of John 14:6 that goes well beyond what the text actually implies, but a critical exegesis of John and his distinctive theology is beyond the scope of this discussion.)




I don't pay any attention to Philo of Alexandria (15-50 BC) and I don't take away or add to scripture; it says what it means to say.


Christological doctrine has nothing to do with the 66 books that I belive to be inspired by God.


The word deny is one of the simple words in the Bible.  Anyone can deny themselves or anyone else of anything. To deny Christ Jesus: equals denying the Holy Spirit which is to blaspheme. Peter denied Jesus three times during the course of one day. John the Baptizer... rather than denying Christ sent a message to Him. Abram denied Hagar of love, food and shelter; and God denied Adam and Eve...the garden. To deny in the context of Matthew 11 is to abandon-reject. One word can mean many things.


If we don't know the Father we can't know the Son and if we don't know the Son we can't know the Father. The Father and the Son are of One mind. Likewise if we reject the Son we automatically reject the Father.  It's a catch 22.


"The Gospel of Matthew was written to the nation Israel. It was first written in Hebrew, and it was directed primarily to the religious man of that time." DR. J. Vernon McGee


 


Matthew 11:24-30 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. 25 At that time Jesus answered and said , I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden , and I will give you rest . 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Jesus hadn't paid our death penalty in Matt 11.

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 6:47PM #8
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,154

VC, got a link where we can read the article in context?

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 8:09PM #9
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Jun 26, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


VC, got a link where we can read the article in context?




Hi Beautiful, this is the link:


 


www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/junewe...

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 9:19PM #10
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222

Jun 26, 2012 -- 2:43PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


voice-crying said:  God is watching and listening to us and when we publically send a message to the world that JESUS is not the PREREQUISITE in determining our loyalty; we are saying that we are not that into HIM.


Are you Jewish?  If not, Jesus wasn't all that into YOU.  Hell, I'm a gentile woman.  My reward for wanting Jesus' salvation, according to how it went down with that gentile woman with the sick kid, would be to be called a "dog" (think the "b" word, rhymes with witch).


voice crying said: Sin causes us to weigh ourselves down with guilt.


I completely disagree.  Guilt is only for those who desire to do the right thing anyway.  Sociopaths don't care thus aren't weighed down by sin at all.




We Christians won't receive our reward until after we get to heaven (according to the Bible). Because of Jesus there is no longer a difference between Jew and Gentile to those who accept Christ Jesus. New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-37; Hebrews 8:7-13; Matthew 26:28-29.


You are right, sociopaths don't care, and neither does anyone who thinks they are "gods."  

"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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