Works: Are You Going to Heaven if You Don't Have the Works Right?

Works: Are You Going to...

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1 year ago :: Jun 14, 2012 - 6:04PM #1
Dickey Posts: 112	Before you knee jerk the typical answers to works based salvation, nothing in this thread from me will say works save you. Here's what scripture says, from my easiest to defend view..... Salvation is by grace through faith, and not works. Faith will be demonstrated in works intrinsically, you can't separate them. If you don't have works, you don't have faith. without faith you can't have grace, without grace you aren't saved. Consult matt 25 sheep goats/ it concurs with this. So, if you don't have works, you better fear for your salvation and talk with God. :) Works don't save you, no one is saying that.
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1 year ago :: Jun 14, 2012 - 7:00PM #2
Theo Posts: 4,429	So then, if works do not save anyone - what does? My answer is - Salvation is not attained by doing works of righteousness for our fellow man. Salvation is not attained by having correct beliefs. Salvation is not attained through baptism. For Salvation is by grace (God's undeserved favor) through faith (in Jesus Christ.) The Lord Jesus Christ saved all mankind by His death on the cross and resurrection from the dead... This He did for us, not because we deserved it, but because as sinners we could noty do it for ourselves. Thus God saved and redeemed us from Satan's power, by sending us His Son, who died for us so that we could live for Him. And we have access to this gift of salvation through faith in Christ. Faith in Christ, therefore, is how we get saved... even as the Bible says, that if we confess the Lord Jesus with our mouth and believe in our heart that God raised HIm from the dead, we shall be saved. However, once we have believed, and partaken of the heavenly gift, good works thereafter are a sign of our genuine faith. Thus it is not enough to say we believe in Jesus, for the faith that saves is also a faith that works... we are to fear God and keep His commandments. For those who are saved, faith and works go together like heads and tails, repentance and baptism... etc. ~ Theophilus
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 1:31AM #3
Rgurley4 Posts: 4,186	Definitions: "belief" ~= spirit-led "faith"...not just head knowledge God the Holy Spirit inspired "belief" = SAVING "faith" "save" = spiritually "born again from above" (John 3) into eternal life and out of eternal death and separation "grace" = unmerited favor, given as a gift, led by God the Holy Spirit "works" = any act by Man directed to God to gain favor, including obedience to "laws" and precepts "Law" = Mosaic law, law given to the nation Israel through Moses Now read: Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The FAITH -WORKS debate and how to handle Sin/Sins/Sin Nature (estrangement from the Tri-Une God)in the lives of the saved/unsaved is the greatest chasm among Christian denominations. After salvation, the Believers' spiritual "works" will be JUDGED. SEE: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we (believers) must all appear before the (spiritual) Judgment Seat (bema) of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the BODY, (/SOUL) according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (after salvation!)
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 1:35AM #4
Rgurley4 Posts: 4,186	The Judgment of the NATIONS ³¹“But when ^Y)">the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, (2nd Coming?) then ^Z)">He will sit on His glorious throne. ( in Jerusalem for 1000 years? ³²All the nations will be ^AA)">gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, ^AB)">as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; ³³and He will put the sheep ^AC)">on His right, (believing societies of Man) and the goats ^AD)">on the left. (UNbelieving societies of Man)
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 8:56AM #5
withwonderingawe Posts: 4,375	I think there are two types of works. There are those who do works to be seen of men; “have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” And then those who do good works and don’t even know they are doing them; “Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?” He’s looking for the “good and faithful servant” not just someone who believes. Wise men still seek him.
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 9:15AM #6
Rgurley4 Posts: 4,186	So, if you don't have (spirituallly good) "works", you better FEAR for your SALVATION and talk with God. :) Once you become a Believer, are you "eternally secure" OR can you lose your spiritully changed status? A, Once a Son, always a Son...B. But your WORKS as a BELIEVER will be JUDGED (tested?)...1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) C...you must follow the WILL of God...Mark 3:35; John 9:31; Romans 12:2; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:36; 1 Peter 4:2; 1 John 2:17 ETERNAL SECURITY...Key Verses: Jude 24; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 13:5; I John 2:1; 1 Cor. 12:13; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8: 28-39 John 10..9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.... 10...I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— —and I lay down my life for the sheep.... 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." The Doctrine of Progressive "Salvation": POSITION versus PRACTICE...How God views us VS. Christian Living A> I was saved from the PRISON (of SIN) in the PAST....simple "saving faith"...Ephesians 2:8...spiritually changed B>I am being saved from the POWER (of SIN) in the PRESENT...God guides believer into good WORKs / HIS WILL C>I will be saved from the PRESENCE (of SIN) in the FUTURE...Eternity in New Heavens and Earth with Tri-Une God
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 4:47PM #7
Dickey Posts: 112	Jun 14, 2012 -- 7:00PM, Theo wrote: So then, if works do not save anyone - what does? My answer is - Salvation is not attained by doing works of righteousness for our fellow man. Salvation is not attained by having correct beliefs. Salvation is not attained through baptism. For Salvation is by grace (God's undeserved favor) through faith (in Jesus Christ.) The Lord Jesus Christ saved all mankind by His death on the cross and resurrection from the dead... This He did for us, not because we deserved it, but because as sinners we could noty do it for ourselves. Thus God saved and redeemed us from Satan's power, by sending us His Son, who died for us so that we could live for Him. And we have access to this gift of salvation through faith in Christ. Faith in Christ, therefore, is how we get saved... even as the Bible says, that if we confess the Lord Jesus with our mouth and believe in our heart that God raised HIm from the dead, we shall be saved. However, once we have believed, and partaken of the heavenly gift, good works thereafter are a sign of our genuine faith. Thus it is not enough to say we believe in Jesus, for the faith that saves is also a faith that works... we are to fear God and keep His commandments. For those who are saved, faith and works go together like heads and tails, repentance and baptism... etc. ~ Theophilus Wow. I usually have more to object to. But, for the most part we ride in the same boat. I'd tweak the say with your mouth and believe in your heart with a heavier emphasis on believe. Anyone can claim to believe, I think few of us really do. Believe is a funny word. BUT, when you get into the belief will manifest in those good works, I have to agree, absolutely even if the words tweak me a bit, we agree on that part. My point was, so if you look at your life and you don't see the works, you probably don't believe, yet, or have faith, yet. If you did you'd have the works. And, it sounded as if you are Universalist? Was that the case? Or was that just how I read the sentence wrong?
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 4:59PM #8
Dickey Posts: 112	Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: So, if you don't have (spirituallly good) "works", you better FEAR for your SALVATION and talk with God. :) Once you become a Believer, are you "eternally secure" OR can you lose your spiritully changed status? Once you are a believer? Or once you say to the world you believe. They aren't the same thing. If you really believe, you won't be able to NOT have those works. So the point is moot. Any fool can say they believe, and may that say they believe are fools. Westboro Baptist Church is one example I've given recently. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: A, Once a Son, always a Son... If you are born of God you do not sin and can not sin. I can't claim to be a Son yet, I'm still in the process, even as those in 1 john 1 were that JOhn wrote to, still in the process. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: B. But your WORKS as a BELIEVER will be JUDGED (tested?)...1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) It's more of a test, that verse would go in lock step with the trials and tribulations verses, and would be able to help understand the TRAINING in Hebrews 12. Where you learn a new discipline from Him. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: C...you must follow the WILL of God...Mark 3:35; John 9:31; Romans 12:2; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:36; 1 Peter 4:2; 1 John 2:17 It's GOD that enables you to follow the Will of God. You are the branch, HE makes the fruit appear on the branch. YOU are the caveat that HIS light shines on the world through. IT's not your fruit nor your light. It's HIS spirit that keeps you from giving into temptation. NOT your will and attention. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: ETERNAL SECURITY It's eternal security for the mature believer, not necessarily for one that accepted grace. Romans 6:22 shows that pretty clearly. You have atonement from sin, then you battle with obedience, but the battle produces a benefit, and the benefit leads to sanctification. You had grace/atonement in the first thought of the verse, but sanctification doesn't occur until after the benefit, that resulted from your battle with obedience, not necessarily your mastery of obedience. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: The Doctrine of Progressive "Salvation": This would make a great thread, I've never had it explained well. It's pure heresy as I understand things. It breaks up what God does to things Man should do. The verses talk PRACTICE vs position and the wording isn't very debatable on most of the key verses. Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:15AM, Rgurley4 wrote: POSITION versus PRACTICE...How God views us VS. Christian Living Problem with this, is it considers that Jesus came to save us, and that's it. :\| What a selfish self important view. the "salvation" part of things was nearly the least of what He did for us. It's about MATURATION or SANCTIFICATION, not salvation. That's where all the confusion comes from. People can only think about saving their own butts, so all their focus, and teaching, and listening and books they read are about how to be saved. You can stand in a circle, and flee sin and run 359 WRONG directions. Only ONE direction goes to GOD. So why not spend more time running TO GOD, not FROM SIN? It would be much more profitable, no?
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 6:11PM #9
Hatman Posts: 9,478	IMO, anyone who dares declare themselves "saved" in the here and now is either ignorant of Christ's words, deceived by the words of others(like Paul), or deliberately devious. Christ said that if you endure to the end, you WILL BE saved. Which of us has reached "the end"? How few seem to understand that "will be" is FUTURE tense? There is NO WHERE i have found where ANY LIVING MAN, WOMAN, OR CHILD is pronounced "saved" prior to their death that i can find in the Bible or any of hundreds of apocrypha. Best we have is the sure and certain faith that if we DO "endure to the end," we WILL BE(future tense) saved. A conditional promise, like an engagement. i am frankly sick to death of the smug prissiness/sheer falsity of many who think themselves so saved that they cannot sin, and also believe that(due to their "saved" status) they can commit all kinds of crimes and evils, and never be called to account for them. (An example that comes to mind is when i attended a Baptist service, caught one of the ministers thereof tossing a candy wrapper on the parking lot after services. When i walked to the trash, looked pointedly at it then at him, he said "What? The earth is going to be destroyed by fire anyway..." Maybe he was never taught that we are to be stewards of the earth, to dress and keep it---not trash it.) i think that even Paul had a clue-by-four when he taught us to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling," not "Now that you're saved, sit on your laurels and pretend to be holy." That said, i agree that works accompany all who truly disciple themselves to Christ, due to the changed nature of the born-again...and without works, any pretense to being Christ's disciple is exposed as the hollow sham of hypocrisy it is. Warmest regards- Hatman "History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." -- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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1 year ago :: Jun 15, 2012 - 7:54PM #10
Theo Posts: 4,429	Dickey: And, it sounded as if you are Universalist? Was that the case? Or was that just how I read the sentence wrong? I am not, as I understand Universalism they believe everyone will be saved in the end. I believe that Jesus Christ redeemed all mankind to God, thereby making salvation accessible to everyone who believes. Sadly, many people do not believe in Christ, and apart from Him there is no salvation. According to our Lord Jesus, those who do not believe in Him are already condemned and will perish in their sins. John 3:18-19 > "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." I do not believe in Limited Atonement, (which is one of the 5 points of Calvinism) rather I believe in the Universal Atonement of Christ; meaning that Jesus died for everyone and therefore anyone can be saved. All we have to do is trust in the Lord Jesus, repent of our sins and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. If we do these things, and continue in works worthy of the Lord, we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Even so, it is necessary to understand that salvation is the gift of God, which He bestows upon those who believe in Christ according to His election of grace. For salvation is not of him who works and wills, but of God who shows mercy. For some people this sounds contradictory, and frankly it is - all things being equal. However, God's ways are higher than our ways, and what is true of God, often appears at odds with what we experience as men. So from the human perspective, there are things we must believe and do to be saved, (as I listed above) but from the Divine perspective, God works all things together according to His purpose of election - thus in the final analysis, salvation belongs to our God. ~ Theophilus
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