Post Reply
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
3 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 1:56PM #1
Dickey
Posts: 112
What is Jesus saying in this verse?

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


AND let me just preempt anyone wanting to put STRIVE in here.  It's not in the text, the translation nor the Greek language, and it's not implied from the context, so do not start adding verses to the quote, please. 

TY.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 4:49PM #2
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

What do you think he is saying?

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 6:55PM #3
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,489

I think my first question to Jesus would be, "But then why is God so pissed when A&E want such a thing?".

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 1:00AM #4
Dickey
Posts: 112
Isaac, that would take all the fun out of the question if I told you the answer, assuming I was right, of course.  So, why don't we discuss it?  You answer and we can start?

I think it means exactly what it says, no words added, taken out, or changed, but fully in context, not read independantly, isolated from context.

Motto, if I was dying, and you brought me the cure, and you brought it because you had a need for me, would you be annoyed if I turnednit down?
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 7:08AM #5
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

You know, you would probably provoke more lively and interesting discussions, from more people with more ideas and points of view, if you weren't so guarded and scornful in the way you express yourself. 


But okay, I think "perfect" here needs to be understoon in the context of the preceding verses.  As we have already discussed elsewhere, the modern English meaning of "perfect" is not a very good rendition of the original Greek.  Here, Jesus is concluding a little rant about not reserving our love and generosity only for our own kin and other people with whom we closely identify, but extending the same goodwill to people from whom we feel alienated or toward whom we feel hostile.   He contrasts the natural urge to  "love your neigbors and hate your enemies"  with the unlimited generosity and goodwill of God, whose blessings are bestowed indiscriminately on everyone. So his urging to be "perfect", in the same sense that God is perfect, is not to achieve an absolute, impossible Platonic ideal of perfection, but to be as complete, as comprehensive, as inclusive in your generosity and kindness toward others as God is toward all of us.  There is an unspoken implication that only love, not hostility, can overcome alienation -- with God's unconditional love toward alienated humanity as the model for human interactions.


(Which is a point that some of our members seem to be missing over on the "Pastor Terry" tread, for example.)


Now, how about keeping that thought in mind as you continue to offer your own comments here at C2CD?

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 11:42AM #6
Dickey
Posts: 112

Jun 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, smcisaac wrote:


You know, you would probably provoke more lively and interesting discussions, from more people with more ideas and points of view, if you weren't so guarded and scornful in the way you express yourself. 



You feel I've been scornful with you?  I won't deny it to those who come at me guns blaring, with the smug presupposed beliefs they try to shove down my throat implying I'm wrong and not even understanding what I had said....  I mimic their behavior right back at them.  I find it interesting that makes ME the scornful one.  I'm a member of a coupld of places, perhaps a bit more professional than here, where we can discuss much deepter than this is, and none of us agree, and there are never fights like on here.  So, while I note your statement, I also will temper it with what I see as a repeating occurance in Xian debate forums.  No matter how you present, first time you ask a question that pushes someone out of their box, a large percentage of these folks are going to attack personally.  When that changes, you'll see me more consistant in my speech.


Jun 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, smcisaac wrote:

But okay, I think "perfect" here needs to be understoon in the context of the preceding verses.  As we have already discussed elsewhere, the modern English meaning of "perfect" is not a very good rendition of the original Greek.  Here, Jesus is concluding a little rant about not reserving our love and generosity only for our own kin and other people with whom we closely identify, but extending the same goodwill to people from whom we feel alienated or toward whom we feel hostile.   He contrasts the natural urge to  "love your neigbors and hate your enemies"  with the unlimited generosity and goodwill of God, whose blessings are bestowed indiscriminately on everyone. So his urging to be "perfect", in the same sense that God is perfect, is not to achieve an absolute, impossible Platonic ideal of perfection, but to be as complete, as comprehensive, as inclusive in your generosity and kindness toward others as God is toward all of us.  There is an unspoken implication that only love, not hostility, can overcome alienation -- with God's unconditional love toward alienated humanity as the model for human interactions.


(Which is a point that some of our members seem to be missing over on the "Pastor Terry" tread, for example.)


Now, how about keeping that thought in mind as you continue to offer your own comments here at C2CD?




 


Well, what you said is exactly what I see as well.  Be perfect as God is perfect would be, in short, Love as maturely/completely as God does, example, even those not on your friendly list. Which would be the epitome of the sheep goats parable at the end of matt 25, in line with Paul's thoughts at Gal 5:6, and John in 1 john 4. 


 


I would contend that the "sanctification" Luther-style theology proposes is not a matter of not sinning, but is rather a matter of growing in Love/Agapao.  (Another word most don't understand past the "warm fuzzy" it gives out. )  And that thought seems to coincide with Paul's comment that he doesn't focus on the things behind Him, but on the race before Him.



In short, run to Agapao, not from Hamartano.




 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 12:56PM #7
smcisaac
Posts: 8,100

Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:42AM, Dickey wrote:


You feel I've been scornful with you?  I won't deny it to those who come at me guns blaring, with the smug presupposed beliefs they try to shove down my throat implying I'm wrong and not even understanding what I had said....  I mimic their behavior right back at them.  I find it interesting that makes ME the scornful one.




Not to me, no.  But a number of your posts seem to express a free-floating presupposed scorn for people whom you imagine to fit in a certain kind of box, even if they haven't yet come forward to speak.  If people thought instead that you were likely to answer even hostile or contrary comments with patience and respect, you might provoke more thoughtful and open replies.


"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:38PM #8
Dickey
Posts: 112

Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:56PM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:42AM, Dickey wrote:


You feel I've been scornful with you?  I won't deny it to those who come at me guns blaring, with the smug presupposed beliefs they try to shove down my throat implying I'm wrong and not even understanding what I had said....  I mimic their behavior right back at them.  I find it interesting that makes ME the scornful one.




Not to me, no.  But a number of your posts seem to express a free-floating presupposed scorn for people whom you imagine to fit in a certain kind of box, even if they haven't yet come forward to speak.  If people thought instead that you were likely to answer even hostile or contrary comments with patience and respect, you might provoke more thoughtful and open replies.


"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1





I guess I'd need examples.  What it appears to be from my perspective is me responding to a presumptious know it all with the mirrored condescension they spoke to me with. 


While it may not be right, I've spoke in these types of forums for  20+ years, and that personality rarely responds to treating them as you describe above.  So I'm guilty of some presumption, but it's similar to the same reasoning that keeps me away from rabid coyotes, a VERY consistent pattern emerges.   


For example, dear cliff, who determined I'm hell bound, mostly because I don't accept his terms of belief.  


I'd really like examples where I responded such that wasn't in response to first being attacked.  I mean, I have to check my behavior, not many folks deliberately try to misbehave, so if I am, I need to see it. 



Thank you. 




Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 4:33PM #9
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
i think that myself and smc are close in our understandings, although i think that the key to understanding that passage is found in "as your Father in Heaven is perfect", as well as the wisdom imparted just prior, which smc brought out nicely.

Christ taught that our Father is Spirit, so that seems to me to be the "perfect" he wishes us to emulate, that is, perfection in spirit(as in "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak")...a point which smc seems to make far better than i.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 4:59PM #10
Dickey
Posts: 112

Jun 14, 2012 -- 4:33PM, Hatman wrote:

i think that myself and smc are close in our understandings, although i think that the key to understanding that passage is found in "as your Father in Heaven is perfect", as well as the wisdom imparted just prior, which smc brought out nicely. Christ taught that our Father is Spirit, so that seems to me to be the "perfect" he wishes us to emulate, that is, perfection in spirit(as in "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak")...a point which smc seems to make far better than i. Warmest regards- Hatman



Hey, mad capper, what does this do for you.  Jesus is talking about how to love.  And when he says telioo/perfect/mature he's commanding your love should be as thorough as God's love.  ''


And something for you to ponder, in Ephesians 4, Paul explains the church is to prepare the people for works of service.  (Not knowledge) And through those works of service you will be made mature, even as mature, completely as Christ was on earth.  Most folks are going to say NO WAY to that one, but he explains that the maturity level is..... 


pretend maturity is measured in glasses of water. 


He says our glass will be the same size as Christs,


just as full as Christ's,


and then redundantly throws in, to the fullness of Christ in case someone doubted his intention. 



Now that comes through works, not study.  It's like if you have to learn to pitch left handed instead of right handed, you can read all day long, all year long on how to do it, but until you actually throw the ball, you won't get any better at it. 


That word AGAPAO demands a demonstration for it to be Agapao.  If not it's just phileo.  And, for the record agapao doesn't need to be loving to be Agapao. although Xian agapao is loving.   In the septuagent the word Agapao was used for a rape in the OT.  So you see where the action part of it's meaning shows up. 


If we live our lives, doing the loving works, rather than debating philosophically over who has it more right, we'd probably get further, and that eph 4 vs says through the works you'd find unity. 




Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook