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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 10:37AM #31
Dickey
Posts: 112

Jun 19, 2012 -- 7:27AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 1:46PM, Estacia wrote:


I read through a few posts. Some are attacking others  and questioning where they stand spritually and in life. I feel with a subject such as this one,that is unfair.




A wise reminder.  As I read recently on a minister's blog, "If it doesn’t result in love, especially for the least of these, then it’s a banging gong, a noisy cymbal, it is in fact just theological bulls**t."




Which brings us back to LOVE the point of matthew 5:48.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 5:21AM #32
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Jun 13, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Dickey wrote:

What is Jesus saying in this verse?

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


AND let me just preempt anyone wanting to put STRIVE in here.  It's not in the text, the translation nor the Greek language, and it's not implied from the context, so do not start adding verses to the quote, please. 

TY.




We have to understand what "perfect" means.  Perfect means wholly being what you were made to be.  A diamond is perfect if it possesses all of the characteristics of what is unanimously agreed upon to be a diamond without flaws.  A human being is perfect if that person is everything that God created him to be.


I would say that Jesus knew that we cannot be everything that God created us to be at this point in time, but when God's due time comes to bring His Kingdom to fill the earth, then everyone must exert themselves to align their lives with God's requirements, and all the while Jesus will be bestowing on mankind the benefits of the Kingdom rule---including whole, non-maimed or diseased bodies.  At the end of the Millennial Reign, all of mankind will be perfect, as God originally intended (and as He created Adam).


Now, at this time, to "be" perfect, we must strive to conform our lives as best as we can to God's requirements, and this way we are doing our best---the best that we can do now---to be perfect.  It will be a reality some day in the future, after God's Kingdom arrives.  (Matt.6:9,10)

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 5:25AM #33
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Jun 13, 2012 -- 6:55PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


I think my first question to Jesus would be, "But then why is God so pissed when A&E want such a thing?".





God was never pissed that A&E wanted to be perfect.  They didn't "want" to be perfect....they were created perfect!  So there was nothing to "want."  And Jehovah wanted them to REMAIN perfect forever.  They would have if they'd just shown Him some respect.

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 5:28AM #34
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Jun 14, 2012 -- 7:08AM, smcisaac wrote:


You know, you would probably provoke more lively and interesting discussions, from more people with more ideas and points of view, if you weren't so guarded and scornful in the way you express yourself. 


But okay, I think "perfect" here needs to be understoon in the context of the preceding verses.  As we have already discussed elsewhere, the modern English meaning of "perfect" is not a very good rendition of the original Greek.  Here, Jesus is concluding a little rant about not reserving our love and generosity only for our own kin and other people with whom we closely identify, but extending the same goodwill to people from whom we feel alienated or toward whom we feel hostile.   He contrasts the natural urge to  "love your neigbors and hate your enemies"  with the unlimited generosity and goodwill of God, whose blessings are bestowed indiscriminately on everyone. So his urging to be "perfect", in the same sense that God is perfect, is not to achieve an absolute, impossible Platonic ideal of perfection, but to be as complete, as comprehensive, as inclusive in your generosity and kindness toward others as God is toward all of us.  There is an unspoken implication that only love, not hostility, can overcome alienation -- with God's unconditional love toward alienated humanity as the model for human interactions.


(Which is a point that some of our members seem to be missing over on the "Pastor Terry" tread, for example.)


Now, how about keeping that thought in mind as you continue to offer your own comments here at C2CD?





Pretty good, smcisaac!

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 9:13AM #35
Dickey
Posts: 112

Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Dickey wrote:

What is Jesus saying in this verse?

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


AND let me just preempt anyone wanting to put STRIVE in here.  It's not in the text, the translation nor the Greek language, and it's not implied from the context, so do not start adding verses to the quote, please. 

TY.




We have to understand what "perfect" means.  Perfect means wholly being what you were made to be.  A diamond is perfect if it possesses all of the characteristics of what is unanimously agreed upon to be a diamond without flaws.  A human being is perfect if that person is everything that God created him to be.



The Greek word has no concept of the "without flaws" part.  AND in King James time the word Perfect didn't hae that idea either.  However today we use it as more of a Utopian concept.  And it got added into our vocabulary as such an ideal that it masks the meaning of the word when King Jim authorized the translation.


You can be perfect as soon as you are doing what you were made to do, flaws and all. 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

I would say that Jesus knew that we cannot be everything that God created us to be at this point in time,



Then, praytell, why was the Greek tense a COMMAND to be perfect, not a request, NOT a "hope for" but a "get to?"  There is nothing of a striving to it.  Do you believe in God?  (I'm not being a @$@ here...)  If you do, if WE do, shouldn't we then trust Him to do what He says He will do?  You say "we can't be...."  The way scripture writes, it's not about what you can do, but what HE can do to you.  Do you think He can't fulfill His promise, or that He won't?  That's how you/we have to think if we say it can not happen. 


And, since Jesus was speaking to living people giving THEM the command to be perfect, and doing it in a way that it was expected, do you contend He was a liar and set them off on the HOLY RED HERRING of a quest they can't fulfill, or that HE knew something they didn't know?


OR do you think He gave a command He knew we would fail, basically lying to us, to lead us to the truth?  That makes no sense.


Now, contextually He was discussing how to love.  The being perfect is not a non sequiturorial change of subject.  It's the conclusion of the Subject.  It might as well be worded like, "Love as GOd loves, and I just showed you how that is, even for His enemies He provides.


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

but when God's due time comes to bring His Kingdom to fill the earth, then everyone must exert themselves to align their lives with God's requirements,



What requirement?  What must you do here?  It is written that HE will change your mind, and your heart, NOT YOU BUT HIM.  Now, since it's about HIM having control, gal 5:16 rom 8:1-8, I'd contend the harder you fight for absolute control, the harder you work at getting into his way.  It would be the equivalent of Gideon not knowing how 300 would succeed unarmed etc... and calling the army back.  Do you think God would have smiled on that?  Blessed are the ...... (show me where making yourself strong is the key in the following...)


  • the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:3)
  • (WEAK, POOR, NOT STRONG SPIRIT, or DEPENDANT Spirit.  That's what God told the Rich Young Ruler He needed to be to be Perfect.)
  • they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. (5:4)
  • the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (5:5)
  • (The not impressed with themselves, the ones realizing they can NOT and rely on God's Grace and Will.)
  • they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (5:6)
  • (Or, those that run the race, and don't think they have arrived as Paul describes in Phil 3.)
  • the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (5:7)
  • the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (5:8)
  • the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (5:9)
  • they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)


It's not about US, it's about HIM.  That isnt' a cliche.  The more you fight for control, the more you make it about YOURSELF.  The stronger you try to build yourself, the less dependant on Him you think you are.  


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

and all the while Jesus will be bestowing on mankind the benefits of the Kingdom rule---including whole, non-maimed or diseased bodies.  At the end of the Millennial Reign, all of mankind will be perfect, as God originally intended (and as He created Adam).



Paul said he was Perfect while living.  He said others were too.  That pretty much blows that thought up.


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Now, at this time, to "be" perfect, we must strive to conform our lives as best as we can to God's requirements, and this way we are doing our best---the best that we can do now---to be perfect.  It will be a reality some day in the future, after God's Kingdom arrives.  (Matt.6:9,10)



SHOW ME STRIVE IN MATTHEW 5, show it in context, in Greek tense, in Greek language, in Greek tradition, Hebrew tradition, whatever, show me how STRIVE belongs there in any way except to make people think they need not love as completely as God does. 


 


IT


 


IS


 


NOT


 


THERE.


But, ty for your post.  And, I respect your conviction.  The above isn't slamming at you, but at the arguments.  The YOU pronoun is also a third person, not just a second person pronoun.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2012 - 2:53AM #36
Estacia
Posts: 2,209

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:00AM, Dickey wrote:

Isaac, that would take all the fun out of the question if I told you the answer, assuming I was right, of course. So, why don't we discuss it? You answer and we can start? I think it means exactly what it says, no words added, taken out, or changed, but fully in context, not read independantly, isolated from context. Motto, if I was dying, and you brought me the cure, and you brought it because you had a need for me, would you be annoyed if I turnednit down?




Ha! Why would you do that?

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2012 - 2:06PM #37
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,006

Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:13AM, Dickey wrote:


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Dickey wrote:

What is Jesus saying in this verse?

Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


AND let me just preempt anyone wanting to put STRIVE in here.  It's not in the text, the translation nor the Greek language, and it's not implied from the context, so do not start adding verses to the quote, please. 

TY.




We have to understand what "perfect" means.  Perfect means wholly being what you were made to be.  A diamond is perfect if it possesses all of the characteristics of what is unanimously agreed upon to be a diamond without flaws.  A human being is perfect if that person is everything that God created him to be.



The Greek word has no concept of the "without flaws" part.  AND in King James time the word Perfect didn't hae that idea either.  However today we use it as more of a Utopian concept.  And it got added into our vocabulary as such an ideal that it masks the meaning of the word when King Jim authorized the translation.


You can be perfect as soon as you are doing what you were made to do, flaws and all. 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

I would say that Jesus knew that we cannot be everything that God created us to be at this point in time,



Then, praytell, why was the Greek tense a COMMAND to be perfect, not a request, NOT a "hope for" but a "get to?"  There is nothing of a striving to it. 


 


*****Wow.  I guess I've really been out of it for the last 5 months!  I didn't even see this post until now.  I apologize.  A divorce really can shatter a person's mind.


To reply:  I stand by what I said about being "perfect."  I think, too, that Jesus had in mind the future when, at the end of his Thousand-Year Reign, human beings will all be perfect, just as Adam was before he disobeyed.  Then we will be able to answer Jehovah as to whether or not we want to be His subjects with a perfect mind and body.


Jesus also said that we MUST "strive" (yes, he did say it; see Luke 13:24) to stay on the road to everlasting life.  Why do you resist the idea of striving?  Doesn't the concept of "enduring" suggest a certain amount of effort?


"Strive to enter in at the strait gate:  for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24, KJV)


"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt. 24:13, KJV) 


_________________________________________________________________________


 


________________________________________________________________


 Do you believe in God?  (I'm not being a @$@ here...)  If you do, if WE do, shouldn't we then trust Him to do what He says He will do?  You say "we can't be...."  The way scripture writes, it's not about what you can do, but what HE can do to you.  Do you think He can't fulfill His promise, or that He won't?  That's how you/we have to think if we say it can not happen. 


And, since Jesus was speaking to living people giving THEM the command to be perfect, and doing it in a way that it was expected, do you contend He was a liar and set them off on the HOLY RED HERRING of a quest they can't fulfill, or that HE knew something they didn't know?


OR do you think He gave a command He knew we would fail, basically lying to us, to lead us to the truth?  That makes no sense.


Now, contextually He was discussing how to love.  The being perfect is not a non sequiturorial change of subject.  It's the conclusion of the Subject.  It might as well be worded like, "Love as GOd loves, and I just showed you how that is, even for His enemies He provides.


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

but when God's due time comes to bring His Kingdom to fill the earth, then everyone must exert themselves to align their lives with God's requirements,



What requirement?  What must you do here?  It is written that HE will change your mind, and your heart, NOT YOU BUT HIM. 


*****Uh, no, he tells us that WE are responsible for proving our love and devotion to him and his requirements.  Otherwise, we wouldn't be expected to ENDURE, would we?


He said that the ones who enter into th Kingdom are the ones DOING the will of his Father.


"Not every one that saith to unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, KJV)


________________________________________________________________


Now, since it's about HIM having control, gal 5:16 rom 8:1-8, I'd contend the harder you fight for absolute control, the harder you work at getting into his way. 


*****I'm not "fighting" for control.  I'm not interested in taking control away from God.  He expects us to do our best to live the Christian life, following the pattern of His Son, Jesus.


"For even hereunto were ye called:  because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (I Peter 2:21, KJV)


_______________________________________________________________


 


 It would be the equivalent of Gideon not knowing how 300 would succeed unarmed etc... and calling the army back.  Do you think God would have smiled on that?  Blessed are the ...... (show me where making yourself strong is the key in the following...)


  • the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:3)
  • (WEAK, POOR, NOT STRONG SPIRIT, or DEPENDANT Spirit.  That's what God told the Rich Young Ruler He needed to be to be Perfect.)
  • they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. (5:4)
  • the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (5:5)
  • (The not impressed with themselves, the ones realizing they can NOT and rely on God's Grace and Will.)
  • they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (5:6)
  • (Or, those that run the race, and don't think they have arrived as Paul describes in Phil 3.)
  • the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (5:7)
  • the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (5:8)
  • the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (5:9)
  • they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)


It's not about US, it's about HIM.  That isnt' a cliche.  The more you fight for control, the more you make it about YOURSELF.  The stronger you try to build yourself, the less dependant on Him you think you are. 


*****It looks to me like everything you listed there is about US conforming our lives to Christ's, for he was all of those things.  And we are VERY dependant on Jehovah and Christ to help us remain firm in our faith and actions. 


"Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong." (I Corinth. 16:13, KJV)


Or, in another version:


"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong."  (NIV)


Also:


"Put on [WE have to do it, not God] the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand fast against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11, KJV)


"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand." (Eph. 6:13, KJV)


Clearly, we are admonished to put forth some effort to take unto ourselves, to PUT ON, this armour of God (righteousness, feet shod with the good news, faith, sword of the Spirit---the Word of God).  We can choose not to.  But if we choose to worship God and follow his commands, we will do our utmost to stay on the road to life.  Paul says that we will stand, after HAVING DONE ALL that we can.  It is on US.  We have to do it.  "Doing" requires effort, on our part.


__________________________________________________________________


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

and all the while Jesus will be bestowing on mankind the benefits of the Kingdom rule---including whole, non-maimed or diseased bodies.  At the end of the Millennial Reign, all of mankind will be perfect, as God originally intended (and as He created Adam).



Paul said he was Perfect while living.  He said others were too.  That pretty much blows that thought up.


*****How?  To be "perfect" now means to be all that we can be as a human being at this point in time.


_________________________________________________________________


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:21AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Now, at this time, to "be" perfect, we must strive to conform our lives as best as we can to God's requirements, and this way we are doing our best---the best that we can do now---to be perfect.  It will be a reality some day in the future, after God's Kingdom arrives.  (Matt.6:9,10)



SHOW ME STRIVE IN MATTHEW 5, show it in context, in Greek tense, in Greek language, in Greek tradition, Hebrew tradition, whatever, show me how STRIVE belongs there in any way except to make people think they need not love as completely as God does. 


*****It's in Luke: 13:24.


_____________________________________________________________ 


IT


 


IS


 


NOT


 


THERE.


But, ty for your post.  And, I respect your conviction.  The above isn't slamming at you, but at the arguments.  The YOU pronoun is also a third person, not just a second person pronoun.




 





I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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