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Switch to Forum Live View exegesis 1 john 3:6
2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 5:29PM #1
Dickey
Posts: 112
How can  you claim to KNOW GOD if you still sin?  

Before you say, "everyone sins, so the verse can't say that", show me how the verse wouldn't say that.  If you are going to say it can't, then show how it doesn't, or don'ot make the claim.  

That logic would make the whole faith stupid, man can't raise from the dead, either, so if 3:9 can't say what it says because we don't see how it could be, then Christ's resurrection woudl be even more incredible.

I believe the verse means exactly as it says, and am very curious for any arguments that it doesn't.

OH before you quote 1:8 tell me why John should be considered whack enough to say one thing in one place, and another in another place that contradicted it.  

 
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 5:41PM #2
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,837

Jun 7, 2012 -- 5:29PM, Dickey wrote:

How can  you claim to KNOW GOD if you still sin?  

Before you say, "everyone sins, so the verse can't say that", show me how the verse wouldn't say that.  If you are going to say it can't, then show how it doesn't, or don'ot make the claim.  

That logic would make the whole faith stupid, man can't raise from the dead, either, so if 3:9 can't say what it says because we don't see how it could be, then Christ's resurrection woudl be even more incredible.

I believe the verse means exactly as it says, and am very curious for any arguments that it doesn't.

OH before you quote 1:8 tell me why John should be considered whack enough to say one thing in one place, and another in another place that contradicted it.  

 



No argument from me.  We are sinners.  We can be forgiven our sins and then know God.  Or we can commit fresh sins and try again.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 5:52PM #3
Dickey
Posts: 112

So, you agree that if we still commit sins, we don't yet know GOD, or His Son, right? 



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 7:50PM #4
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,837

Jun 7, 2012 -- 5:52PM, Dickey wrote:


So, you agree that if we still commit sins, we don't yet know GOD, or His Son, right? 






Right.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 8:03PM #5
k-bearsmom
Posts: 1,716

SO wrong!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 8:21PM #6
Dickey
Posts: 112
Well, angel dude, you took all the talk out of that one.  Most only contend your sins are forgiven, not that you will not be able to commit them anymore.....:)

Ms Mom,

How does 1 john 3 not say what it says.  I understand you don't want it to say that, and believe it does not say that, but what is it saying then and how did my read on it get flawed?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 8:51PM #7
TemplarS
Posts: 6,865

Jun 7, 2012 -- 5:52PM, Dickey wrote:


if we still commit sins, we don't yet know GOD, or His Son, right? 






Know him perfectly? That is true.


Look, our relationship with God and Jesus is like any relationship.  It progresses, it deepens (ideally, anyway).  When we sin, we harm it. Nobody completely knows God, or completely has the spirit within him.  So everyone sins, at some point.


But if what Jesus said about the Kingdom of Heaven being among us means anything- it means that this is not hopeless, that we can progress, that the more we put into the relationship, by striving to lead a good life and not sin- the more we can come to know God and Jesus.  Though we will never know him perfectly in this life.


I don't think it is either/or; that you either know God perfectly or not at all.  But the idea that sin doesn't matter, that it is okay if we sin so long as we confess it and repent afterwards, the notion that once we are "saved" sin doesn't matter- these ideas, in my opinion, stand in the way of any deepening  knowledge of or relationship with God.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 9:54PM #8
Dickey
Posts: 112
Please show me how you got "know Him perfect" in this verse?  I don't think there is an import feature there....

While it is a progressive relationship, john shows it has a point to attain to, and still sinning isn't it.... as far as nobody completely knowing Him, that may be so, but it isn't impossible, paul says that at maturity a Xian should be as spiritually mature as jesus Himself was, so I would say your conclusion here isn't biblical.....but emotional.

Who parted the red sea, moses or god?  In your explanation it seems you want to do it yourself.  It seems it credits GOD WITH ANY CHANGING that occurs in you, not your skills at sin management.  Now, who seperated the sea, God or Moses?

You say we will never know him perfectly, and if that is your faith it is your truth.  But scripture expects it, not just allows for it as an ideal.  So, as it was impossible to raise a dead man, have an impotent man impregnate his barren wife, have an army of 300 armed with crock pots and bugles win a battle against tens of thousands, trusting God to do what He says He will do seems a workable plan to me.  I don't know of any such limitations in God's abilities as you believe there are....

Tell me, what in this verse allows you to say it is not either or.  I understand it is your hope it isn't, but that is not what is stated, and you know what it says about changing scripture.

Your view of sin and the relationship with God, ignores eliminates grace and all it stood for.  :(  you have no clear conscience.  And you fear judgement, thus instead of focusing on being mature in love, matt 5:48, you focus on controlling sin.  Ever think the more control yo7 have, the more you take from him? 

What kind of Spirit is blessed in the beattitudes?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 9:05AM #9
weberhome02
Posts: 1,990

.
It's critical to know before going in that John's first epistle wasn't written for the benefit of standard rank and file pew warmers, nor for the amusement of chat room bee-essers; but was specifically penned, and intended, for the benefit of an elite category of believers identified as those in possession of eternal life.


†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Obviously then, the epistle was never meant to be fodder for a chat room bull session since only people with eternal life are able to make sense of John's letter and put it to use.


†. 1John 2:26-27 . .These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


Neither standard rank and file pew warmers, nor chat room bee-essers, have that anointing; viz: when the bee-essers and/or the warmers fool around with John's letters, they are actually tampering with someone else's mail, and prying into matters that are none of their business.


Cliff
/

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 9:42AM #10
TemplarS
Posts: 6,865

Dickey, while I agree with much of what you say (e.g. that is it God's grace which enables us in these things, not our own abilities) I think what you are doing is straining at an overly constrained  interpretation of one passage without looking at the overall context.


The whole of 1 John is a powerful summary of what it means to be a Christian.  In this context, sin is not okay.  Over and over again, and not just in the passage you cite, continuing to sin is condemned.  In John's summary of the faith, belief or faith is not enough; as in James, if we say we have faith, but do not live accordingly- we really do not.  Faith is a process motivated by the Holy Spirit within us but acted out in the world.


But as a practical matter John also writes "If we claim to be without sin, Q)">we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins S)">and purify us from all unrighteousness.  If we claim we have not sinned, U)">we make him out to be a liar V)">and his word is not in us."


In Chapter 5 John asks us to pray for those brothers and sisters who have sinned.


It is he who calls Jesus an advocate with the Father for those who do sin.


The point to the whole of 1 John is, to me: to live in Christ demands an absence of sin. But when we fail there is recourse; but that recourse is not to be found in ourselves, but in Christ.


As for it being possible for someone to be completely free from sin and hence truly know the Lord, well, theoretically yes, but I don't know of anyone and I have never heard or read of anyone.  It might be possible through  God's grace, but the problem lies in ourselves.  This is the goal but there is little evidence over two thousand years that it is perfectly achievable.

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