Jun 9, 2012 -- 4:23PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

RE: Your ATTEMPTED "RATIONAL" (eisegesis, NOT "Revealed") "Exegesis" of one Verse:  1 John 3:6

aka

Q: What did John, the original writer,  intended to convey to Believers in the early "Church" in 1 John 3: 3-10 (NASB) ?

A: A true believer's sins before salvation are "paid for"...once for all. (v. 5; 8b)...
When the TRI-UNE GOD "views" a believer, He sees the Spirit, not a sinner Man...(v. 9)
After salvation, the indwelling God the Holy Spirit should be followed by obeying / trusting in the example and precepts of Jesus the Christ.(v. 6)
If a believer sins after salvation, forgiveness of sins is claimed by "confession"...agreeing with God that he has fallen short of perfection

Language: Aramaic, Translated into Koine Greek
Author: John the Elder, Son of Zebedee, beloved Christ-follower / disciple / apostle; author of a Gospel, 3 letters and Revelations to the "Church",
Written probably from Ephesus to emphasize and glorify the Deity of Jesus the God-Man.
Time: ~50 - 60 years after witnessing the Risen Christ...
dictation superintended by God the Holy Spirit with perfect recall of Jesus of Nazareth and His ministry.

IN CONTEXT: 1 John 3: 3-10 (NASB)

3 And everyone (believers) who has this hope fixed on Him PURIFIES himself (from "sin") , just as He (Jesus) is pure.(free from "sin")

4 Everyone who PRACTICES sin also PRACTICES lawlessness;
and sin is lawlessness.

5 You know that He (Jesus) appeared in order to take away sin(s);
and in Him there is no sin.

6 No one who ABIDES in Him sins;
   no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

Little children, make sure no one deceives you;
the one who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous,(holy, set apart)
just as He is righteous;
8 the one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil; (absence of God's goodness)
for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose,
to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin,
because His seed (spirit) ABIDES in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious:
anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God,
nor the one who does not love his brother.

Key WORDS:
1. PURIFIES...obtains forgiveness of sins
2. PRACTICES...spiritual "works" after salvation
3. ABIDES...totally and spiritually living within the perfect will of God...100% is impossible!

"who abides"  Greek3306 = menō  = ~living within
"abides" appears 23 times in 20 verses NASB...ALL written by John!!
SEE e.g....John 15!; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16
 
Biblical "Exegesis" is a theological term used to describe an approach to INTERPRETING a passage in the Bible by critical ANALYSIS.

PROPER "exegesis" includes:
1. using the context around the passage,
2. comparing it with other parts of the Bible, and
3.applying an understanding of the language and customs of the time of the writing,
in an attempt to understand clearly what the original writer intended to convey.
In other words, it is trying to "pull out" of the passage the meaning inherent in it.
The opposite of this word is "eisegesis", which is a person's particular interpretation of scriptures that are not evident in the text itself.

At least two different forms or TYPES of Biblical "Exegesis" exist.
 They are called "Revealed" and "Rational".

"Revealed" believes the Holy Spirit inspired the Biblical authors of the texts,
and therefore the words in the Bible convey God's divine revelation to man.

"Rational" believes that the original writers of the Bible's books used their own creativity and inspiration
(apart from God) to write what they did.

The Bible itself, however, clearly states its writers were inspired and even eye-witnesses to what they and their scribes wrote.
The Bible teaches its words came from God to holy men and women through the power of the Holy Spirit:

SEE:
2 Peter 1:16-21,32....Scripture came from SPIRITUALLY guided Men
2 Timothy 3: 14-17...All Scripture is God-breathed
Luke 24: 25-27...the post-resurrection super BIBLE study
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

Gurly, it's rare I Find such a condescending post towards me, that is so errant.  When you are going to stick your chest out and be cocky, at least be right.  I typed out a line by line rebuttal, and happy fingers hit enter and it's gone, so you'll get a summary now. 

Your whole argument relies on, John contradicted himself.  You use all sorts of other scripture to say 3:6 is wrong.  You don't offer any other explanation for 3:6.  So this is all a waste of time, and giving eisegesis way more time than I should. 

You say 5:8 says something.... that it doesn't even come close to saying, I'm not sure what verse you meant to post there, but I assume it's a typo. 

You make up a term true believer that doesn't exist.  But I'll tell you what exists, is in chapter 1 JOHN is in fellowship with God, and those he writes to are not, AND YET they are "saved" and have Christ as their atonement and mediator.  GO chew on that one. 

When the TRI-UNE GOD "views" a believer, He sees the Spirit, not a sinner Man...(v. 9)

Errr, romans 8:9 says there is no sinner man anymore if the Spirit indwells you. And col 2:11 says it is removed, the body of sins of the flesh is circumcised by Christ.  So, is your theology that Jesus can't get the job done?  Or do you just ignore the verses that don't suit your theology? 

After salvation, the indwelling God the Holy Spirit should be followed by obeying / trusting in the example and precepts of Jesus the Christ.(v. 6)

Well, gal 5:16 says the SPIRIT OF GOOD keeps you from giving into temptation, so if it's indwelling there is no more flesh nature, (above) and the SPIRIT keeps you from sinning.  Do you find Him incapable as well?  

If a believer sins after salvation, forgiveness of sins is claimed by "confession"...agreeing with God that he has fallen short of perfection[/quote

Yes, and those that were not in fellowship in chapter 1 needed that to help them get there, thus he wrote the letter so they may not sin 2:1a, vs those that are there CAN NOT SIN 3:9 post conjunction.  Ou Hamartano.  In no way does the fact some need confession mean people will sin forever until they die.  And you mistake salvation with maturation.  Being saved is the first step, not the destination. :|

Your author claim is bunk.  There are a dozen JOhn's it could have been, 3 that are STRONGLY LIKELY To have been, and no way to know for sure.  You have four "Jahnian" books.  The 2 and 3 epistles the author named Himself the elder.  The first epistle He didn't he wrote from an US.  Perhaps JOHN at Patmos, a different person than John the Apostle, perhaps they were the same, we DO NOT KNOW to the honest students.  You also have John the one Jesus loved.  Could be 3 different JOhns or the same john.  Your comments on koinea from Aramaic stuff is just arrogant posturing.  Nice cut and paste. 

You posted the verses, and offered NO explanation on what 3:6 might say to disagree with what I said it said.  So this whole thing can be brushed off as a crazy man wasting pixels and saying JOhn contradicts himself. 

"who abides"  Greek3306 = menō  = ~living within
"abides" appears 23 times in 20 verses NASB...ALL written by John!!
SEE e.g....John 15!; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16

If you abide in Him, you do not sin, if you sin you don't know Him and have not met him.  Nor are you walking in the LIGHT AS HE DOES if you sin, so you aren't in fellowship with Him. 

Yes, I'm very familiar with how it is used.  I spent years digesting this.  TY for showing you know how to use a concordance. 

Since you are claiming John contradicts himself, then try to proceed to imply I'm not using exegesis, I have to just disregard, because if John is contradicting in your theology, you have no theology, you have pure eisegesis. 

Between the two of us, I accept it as written, you try to warp it to your theology, I'm not the one treating it as uninspired.  Every argument you made can be explained within my view of the verse in question.  Your views do not fit within the other comments in the bible, nor with JOhn. 

ty for playing.  Your tone and attitude were unnecessarily arrogantly rude. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Dickey wrote:

Jun 8, 2012 -- 2:58PM, dblad wrote:

@Dickey ...

There is ZERO evidence fo a person raising from the dead after 3 days.  Why are you Xian?

All the evidence I need is the Holy
Bible

Great, then you will accept the verse for what it says, that ifr you still are sinning you do not know God yet.  So we would be in agreement. 

YES!!! I AGREE!!! You are human, therefore you SIN!!! So YOU do NOT know God!!!

But being human, sinneth not, means; not that you have no sin in you, or that you live without sin, but you do not live in sin.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

...Your whole argument relies on, "John contradicted himself"...

INCORRECT: John's writings are in general harmony. I neither stated nor inferred any "contradictions" therein.

You don't have to infer deliberately nor state to have presented a contradiction.  3:6 as written says you do not know HIM if you sin.  You said no it doesn't, didn't show what this verse could mena, just presented "arguments" from elsewhere in his writings that don't discredit my claim, and do nothing to address 3:6 specifically.  You presented them as if they would show 3:6 didn't say that, thus a contradiction.  Show 3:6 doesn't say it.  Show me in the verse what it says and how I got it wrong.  Don't tell me elsewhere changes the words in 3:6.  

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

His intended meaning of the key word translated "abide"
should be viewed with ALL verses in context in which "abide" is used. See examples below.

If this somehow changes my views then you should show me.  Your assumptive position of I've not done this 85,000 times already denotes your humility. :|

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

....JOHN is in fellowship with God (saved?), and those he writes to are NOT...(saved?)

INCORRECT: As a believer and Christ-follower, John intended to write ONLY to the believers, the "Church", the Body of Christ.

I showed how it says just what I said.  You give me your own opinion and don't address the arguments.  I'm sticking with JOhn's words, not yours.  HE SAID he writes to them so they may be in fellowship with HIM, but they had a mediator in Christ already, so they were past atonement, and thus by your definitions, are saved.  HOWEVER JOHN is in fellowship with GOD, and they are not in fellowship with John so they aren't in fellowship with God.   If they were, JOhn would have not needed to state that he had a fellowship with God already. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

I challenge you to cite verses in which John says or implies that he is writing to unbelievers.

...(after salvation), there is no more "flesh nature", (above) and the SPIRIT keeps you from sinning...

INCORRECT: I believe you are mixing:
1. spiritual POSITION in the eyes of God as He views a believer after salvation
2. spiritual PRACTICE of the believer after salvation during his PROGRESSIVE sanctification, being spiritually led into "good works"

No, those are made up words to apologetically try to change the meanings in the verses I gave.  Col 2:11 romans 8:9, gal 5:16, etc..  You can create fantasy theology, or, parrot other's fantasy theology, but you are not addressing the scriptures given. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

At salvation, believers are freed of the BONDAGE of the IMPUTED SIN NATURE....redeemed, reconciled, spiritually changed.

If they were changed they wouldn't sin.  You need to stop teaching folks are changed before they are.  Paul said if the Spirit indwelled you were no longer in the flesh, your position says he's a damned liar.  Damned because that is what scripture says occurs to those that go flipping scripture around to suit their own private theology.  

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

But Man's "natural sin nature" can quench and grieve the indwelling God the Holy Spirit to the extent that His gudance and control is not followed.

NOT WHEN IT IS NO LONGER PRESENT.  THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS< AT THAT POINT IT IS GONE.  You can pull your head out of the sand, or whever it is, and address the scripture and lose the pompousness and answer what was presented, not just ignore it and reiterate your theories.  Deal? 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

..You posted the verses (in context for the FIRST TIME), and 

offered NO explanation on what 1 John 3:6 (alone) might...(mean)

INCORRECT:...I repeat and clarify...

QUESTION: What did John, the original writer,  intend to convey to Believers in the early "Church" in 1 John 3: 3-10 (NASB) ?

ANSWER:
1. A believer's sins before salvation are "paid for"...once for all. (1 John 3:5; 1 John 3:8b)...and many similar verses support this doctrine.

Says what you thnk 3:5 means, and 3:8b means, not 3:6.  Since 3:6 contradicts your views, I'd say you got those points wrong too. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

2. When the TRI-UNE GOD "views" a believer, He sees the indwelling Spirit side of man.
A saved believer's sins are covered by the sacrificial and completed work through shed blood of Jesus the God-Man on the Cross  ...(1 John 3: 9)
...and many similar verses support this doctrine.

3. After salvation, the indwelling God the Holy Spirit should be followed by obeying / trusting in the example and precepts of Jesus the Christ.

See above, none of this says what 3:6 says.  You dance all around it.  Show me the words in 3:6 to mean other than what they are saying.  Your views contend that it doesn't mean what it says.  What the heck kinda position is that. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

1 John 3:24(NASB)

24 The one (believer) who keeps His commandments ABIDES in Him, and He in him.
We (believers) know by this that He ABIDES in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If you still sin you are not in Him, do not know Him. you can't use the same author's words, to say his other words need to be changed.  That's juvenile argumentation, and embarassing. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

1 John 4:16(NASB)

16  We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.
God is love,
and the one who abides in love ABIDES in God, and God abides in him.

matt 5:48 IF you have the love right, you LOVE AS GOD DOES, If you love as GOD DOES, what sin would you be committing?  IN HIM THERE IS NO DARKNESS 1 john 1, if you sin YOU ARE DARKNESS so you can't be in Him.  THEY HAD TO HAVE THE DARKNESS WASHED AWAY BEFORE THEY WERE IN HIM, 2:8.  You are NOT ADDRESSING 3:6's words.  You are trying to redefine the rest of the book to suit your needs. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

John 15: (paraphrase)...Jesus to disciples: Show your love by OBEYING

It says if you obey that is proof you are LOVING GOD.  The word AGAPAO means a commitment/emotion with an action.  Even RAPE has been translated with the word Agapao. So, if you have the actions towards God of course it's obedience.  BUT HELL, I know atheists more obedient to God's words than 95% of the Xians I know, doesw that mean they love a GOD that they deny exists?  In chapter 4 JOhn says that can't be.  You can be obedient and not love, you can't love and be disobedient. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

REMAIN IN = ABIDE

which you can't claim if you still sin 3:6  how do you read 3:6.  Stop screwing up the whole book, and tell me what 3:6 says. 

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

"I am the vine; you are the branches.

If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
....apart from me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value)

If HE IS THE VINE, and he creates the fruit you find on the branches, and he takes the nourishment, and the strength and the commands to the branches, then if you are the branch all you do is hold, are a catalyst for His actions to occur through.  For you to say it can't happen, yo uhave to say GOD CAN NOT DO IT.  And that is the summation of your theology, you won't say those words, but every position you've made embraces that thought.  

Jun 9, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

4. If a believer sins after salvation, forgiveness of sins is claimed by "confession"...agreeing with God that he has fallen short of perfection.

 So what?  NO one denied that.  It doesn't mean that he will sin forever.  It means salvation is the first step to maturation.  And that person is saved not yet mature, exactly as I showed you in chapter 1. 

1 John 1 (NASB)
5  This is the message we (disciples) have heard (directly) from Him and announce to you (believers) ,
that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6  If we say that we have (spiritual) fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness (of the world),
we lie and do not PRACTICE the truth;

If you still sin in your life you still walk in the darkness and you can't claim fellowship with GOd.  Tell you what, the moment you can admit that, the moment you can start the race that puts you in fellowship with Him, until then you'll have to rewrite TONS of scripture. 

Of course it is.  You deny that GOD can change you.  It says HE changes your heart, and mind.  YOUR VIEW has GOD as a terrorist going to burn you in hell if you sin.  He is a fascist that threatens those that are to love Him.  That's your sin-eternal presentation of the Gospel.  You ignore the God so loved part.  he not only forgives you, he will heal you, thus the changing your heart and mind.  IF HE CHANGEDS THEM, how the hell do you contend you can change them back?  Why don't you address ANY OF THE VERSES given you before you reply again, save me the time of having to repeat them over and over and over.  If you walk by the Spirit you won't give into the temptations of the flesh.  Tell me batman, how can you walk back to the flesh, from the Spirit when 1) it is gone, rom 8:9a, 2) the Spirit won't let you give into temptation and you would have to be tempted and give in to go back in the first place.  Do you realize how ridiculous your position is when put with scripture? 
God says he frees you from punishment of sin. so you can be free of sin. it was for liberty he set you free.  Why are there two FREEDOMS in there, was paul an idiot and redundant? (you must think so as yo uhave him contradicting himself all over the place) or are you missing the point. 

If you are going to ignore the versal support and just deny they exist again, don't waste my time, nor take up pixels in the conversation with your statements.  They have no value until they can exist within already presented and unrefuted arguments.  You waste my time and everyone elses.  Please be considerate, and more humble, and at least responsible enough to answer the rebuttals, rather than repeat hte same things over and over. 

I can't tell you how frustrating the disrespect you vomited out here is. 

Thank you for your post. :)  Sincerely. 

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:29PM, hamerhas wrote:

 

John is writing in response to those among the christian community who were  attempting to

spread seeds of doubt concerning Christ's resurection & the power of it , while  fist pumping for

the devil and the superior power of his works , over the supposed works  of Christ.

I think you can claim that they were facing people who did that, thus the warnings in 3 and 4 on who to trust, but those he wrote to, were under Christ's grace and had him as their mediator.  So I don't think they were the ones sprouting the seeds.  In fact in 2:8 it shows they were progressing to being IN fellowship with God, and thus couldn't be walking away must have been walking to, again protecting them FROM THOSE THAT WOULD DISTRACT, most say an earlier form of Gnosticism.  Can we agree there? 

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:29PM, hamerhas wrote:

Imagine someone doing that ! 

From that persepective John is writing the believers that if they be in this Jesus who the Christ , then from that moment forward they will come into the presence of a Holy God as if they had never committed a sin.

Kindly show me how you can get that from the text please?  I see nothing to support that view without some gross editing going on. 

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:29PM, hamerhas wrote:

Not even one.

And will live in eternity having never committed a sin.

What an odd view of what COMMIT means.?

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:29PM, hamerhas wrote:

Their sins  past , present , future  are removed as far as east is from the west.

They are remembered no more.

He is speaking from God's posture towards those in Christ.

And yet those IN HIM, or born of HIM with his SEED IN THEM, CAN NOT SIN, which doesn't allow for you to sin and confess, that would be not held accountable for their sins, not can not sin.  3:9 says CAN NOT SIN in the greek. So I can't accept your hypothesis above. 

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:29PM, hamerhas wrote:

I think the key to understanding this is that unless you are a child of God you really do not understand what He has given to those who are His children .

I think that's called a no true scotsman.  If you have HIS SEED in you, you can not sin.  If you claim to be one of those "children of God", then you better be able to meet the criteria.  I can't meet that criteria, He's not finished with me yet, I still sin.

             "  Who is liar but he that  denieth that Jesus is the Christ ?

                  He is antichrist ."

                ( 1 John 2:22 )

The verse has nothing to do with the chat we are having. 

.

Jun 10, 2012 -- 7:03PM, hamerhas wrote:

"for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17) . . . and says "show me where Adam died that day he sinned ?"

The Bible's custodian is a supernatural being whose cognitive processes work vastly different than human cognitive processes. Thus, many of the Bible's teachings are anything but plain.

†. 1Cor 2:11 . . No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own spirit.

I can usually understand what my fellow men mean by their words because I and the people with whom I dialogue have human minds and human intuition. But the meanings of God's words are often a total mystery to me because my human mind is unable to follow His thinking. The problem is, my mind is the product of a three-pound lump of organic tissue and not even all three of those pounds are dedicated to cognitive processes. I mean: just how expansive can an organic mind of those dimensions really be? Hence the cold hard fact of life below:

†. 1Cor 2:14 . . The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are absurd to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Spiritual discernment cannot be obtained from a seminary, nor from a Bible college, nor from a Sunday school class, nor from the reading of many books. It's obtained from God; and God is very picky about who He allows to have it; even among His own chosen people.

†. Deut 29:2-4 . . Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them: You have seen all that Yhvh did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: yet Yhvh  has not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

†. 1Cor 2:12-14 . . God has actually given us His spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can comprehend the wonderful things God has freely given us. When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by The Spirit, using The Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.

The pronoun "us" in the above statement specifically refers to the category of people to whom Paul penned the letter; viz: "to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, invited as saints; with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord: both theirs and ours"

Some of the "us" sharpen their heart to perceive, their eyes to see, and their ears to hear by means of dedicated prayers.

†. Eph 1:15-17 . . I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

†. 1Cor 2:16 . . But we have the mind of Christ.

The pronoun "we" of course again doesn't pertain to non-Christians. It specifically refers to the category of people to whom Paul penned the letter; viz: "to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, invited as saints; with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord: both theirs and ours"

Cliff
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