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Switch to Forum Live View Is The Sacrifice Of Amercan Soldiers Really The Same As the Sacrifice Of Jesus On The Cross?
2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 2:05PM #1
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

My Church service this morning was all about the sacrifice of American soldiers and comparing it to the Sacrifice of Christ when He died on the Cross to save the world from sin.


I have problems with this, and I sat through my Church Service with my Bible open to Ezekiel 22:30-31, and as the Church members stood and applauded the soldier's sacrifice, and I heard story after story of soldiers who died as they werre throwing grenades at the enemy, and I heard how our Nation was a Pagan nation because we accept Homosexuality, I stood in the Gap and prayed for God to forgive us.  


I see the biggest problem with our Nation and the Church in America as all about disregarding Jesus teachings about how we are to treat others, our enemy, Jesus words were love our enemies, for God made the sun rise on and the rain come down on them, too. God loves them, too.

Anyone have any thoughts about all of this?    


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 4:55PM #2
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Anyone have any thoughts about all of this?    



Frankly, I believe pro-military sentiments comparing the sacrifice of Christ to take away the sins of the world, to military men fighting and dying to advance America's Foreign policy and protect "our vital national interests" is next to blasphemy against the Son of God.


Jesus taught us to love our enemies, not kill them or die trying. The US Military has an incestuous way of using religion to ennoble an otherwise terribly evil and violent profession. They ennoble the deaths of the enlisted man by comparing their willingness to "serve their country" with Christ's willingness to do the will of God, and give His life a ransom many... and on and on they go, talking about how we all have a duty to serve our country and if necessary lay down our lives for the cause of freedom - its all military BS. This Christians does not buy their lies, its nothing but a huge headtrip. War is of the devil, it's one of his many tools to damn and destroy as many souls as possible... and right thinking Christians do not go and sign up for the Army after reading Jesus saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers," and "If my kingdom where of this world, then my servants would fight."     


Jesus did not come to fight and die in some war against the devil, rather, the devil is at war with God, and so Christ used his violent evil ways to defeat the devil, by using His own unjust death to redeem mankind to God and expose the devil for the violent despicable liar that he is. War, fighting and killing people are tools of the devil, not the means of the kingdom of God. As a follower of Christ, I would urge all good men and women of faith to follow His example and be peacemakers, not war mongers.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 7:33PM #3
smcisaac
Posts: 7,979

No, there's no comparison at all, and your preacher was preaching blasphemy and idolatry to suggest an equivalence. (And what on earth does sacrifice of either kind have to do with sexuality of any kind!?)


Run, don't walk, to another church, and never look back.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 7:34PM #4
k-bearsmom
Posts: 1,716

there is NOTHING worthy of comparison to what Jesus sacrificed for mankind....NOTHING!

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2 years ago  ::  May 27, 2012 - 8:39PM #5
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,162

I agree...as much respect as I have for our armed forces (I'm a Navy brat), there is no comparison at all between the sacrifices they made and the sacrifices Jesus made. Not. At. All. I don't want to hear politics or nationalism of any kind from the pulpit, and this fits both. 


It's great if they want to mention our fallen soldiers (past and present), but it shouldn't be done in any sort of 'religious' or 'teaching' way. It's one thing if it's mentioned in the Prayers of the People (like, "we pray for X, Y, Z Church Members who are currently serving overseas, and the families of those who have lost a loved one in war"), but that's about the only way I'd think it acceptable.


Sherri, if I may ask, what denomination was this church? I've heard similar when I was in a Baptist church and at Pentecostal-ish services but not at my current Episcopal church. I'm not sure there's even an American flag in the sanctuary.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 11:07AM #6
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Beautiful_Dreamer,


The church I attend is a Baptist church in  a small town in a southern state, affiliated with the SBC.


Before I became a member of this church, I attended another Baptist church in my town for a few services, it was right after 9/11 and they had a flag ceremony at that church, that was a First Baptist Church. The Pastor's son was in the Military, I think. I live less than 50 miles from an Airforce base, the support for the military carries over into the churches. I live in a conservative state and a southern state, who I do not think would ever elect a black  man as President, if it was only up to them, because he is black.  


I am going to get a CD of the Sermon and listen to it, be completely sure about what was said,  and make a decision about whether I can stay at this church. I am tired of having to stay away from churches at certain times, like near elections, on patriotic Holidays.


My kids were not with me at church Sunday, my 11 year olds with their grandparents at the lake, I said to my mother after church, I am glad they were not there, it would have been child abuse to take my kids to that church service.


Flags, there were 6 flags on the Podium/Platform back behind where the Preacher stands, where the Choir normally sings, but we did not sing on Sunday, five American flags, one State flag, they gave US flags to those who had served in the military in the two services on Sunday.


Sherri


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 11:52AM #7
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Personally, I can't stand Southern Baptist Churches, some of them are so married to their own view of God and Country Guns and Guts that the Gospel of Christ often gets completely obscured, especially on days like Memorial Day and the 4th of July. Personally, I will not attend a Church that displays the State and the National Flag in the Church, not because I hate America or the flag, but because Christianity and the worship of God have nothing to do with the United States of America. There are Christians in every nation on the face of the earth, and for those who are members of the Body of Christ, fellow Christians should have more in common with one another than citizens of the same nations... Christ is what makes us one, not the USA and therefore we should be for Christ and His kingdom, not our respective nations, and all the more so when they get in the way of the Gospel.


I have never lived in the South, I live in Washington State, but even here we have Churches that seem to think honoring the military is the ultimate form of worship. In my own Church a few weeks back, the pastor invited the police, the military and representatives of the State and County government to come to Church and be honored by our Congregation and to be thanked for their service to the people. I came that Sunday morning and noticed the Suits and Uniforms and the hand-cuffs displayed on fellowship tables, and felt like gagging. I lasted there for another 5 minutes before leaving that morning, and it took me a few more Sundays at home and visiting my Mom in Oregon, before I was willing to attend Church there again this Sunday.


The sad thing is, lots of Christians and even Churches get sidelined by crap like this. In Apostolic times, St. Paul came to Jerusalem only to find the Christians there all "zealous for the Law and Jerusalem," so much so that even he got roped into going to the Temple to make some kind of offering according to the Law... and it proved to be his undoing. His going to the Temple nearly caused a riot, and got him thrown in jail for 2 years in Jerusalem, and then shipwrecked on a trip to Rome to stand trial before Caesar.  The point being, the Christians of Jerusalem should have all been zealous for Christ and the Kingdom of God, not for the Law of Moses and Jerusalem... and it is much the same here in America. Some Churches almost act like America is the Kingdom of God, and to not display the flag would be an act of treason against Christ. In my opinion, if you're not a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel first and foremost, you have no claim to following Jesus Christ or looking for the Kingdom of God.


~ Theophilus

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 1:31PM #8
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,795

May 28, 2012 -- 11:52AM, Theo wrote:


Personally, I can't stand Southern Baptist Churches, some of them are so married to their own view of God and Country Guns and Guts that the Gospel of Christ often gets completely obscured, especially on days like Memorial Day and the 4th of July. Personally, I will not attend a Church that displays the State and the National Flag in the Church, not because I hate America or the flag, but because Christianity and the worship of God have nothing to do with the United States of America. There are Christians in every nation on the face of the earth, and for those who are members of the Body of Christ, fellow Christians should have more in common with one another than citizens of the same nations... Christ is what makes us one, not the USA and therefore we should be for Christ and His kingdom, not our respective nations, and all the more so when they get in the way of the Gospel.


I have never lived in the South, I live in Washington State, but even here we have Churches that seem to think honoring the military is the ultimate form of worship. In my own Church a few weeks back, the pastor invited the police, the military and representatives of the State and County government to come to Church and be honored by our Congregation and to be thanked for their service to the people. I came that Sunday morning and noticed the Suits and Uniforms and the hand-cuffs displayed on fellowship tables, and felt like gagging. I lasted there for another 5 minutes before leaving that morning, and it took me a few more Sundays at home and visiting my Mom in Oregon, before I was willing to attend Church there again this Sunday.


The sad thing is, lots of Christians and even Churches get sidelined by crap like this. In Apostolic times, St. Paul came to Jerusalem only to find the Christians there all "zealous for the Law and Jerusalem," so much so that even he got roped into going to the Temple to make some kind of offering according to the Law... and it proved to be his undoing. His going to the Temple nearly caused a riot, and got him thrown in jail for 2 years in Jerusalem, and then shipwrecked on a trip to Rome to stand trial before Caesar.  The point being, the Christians of Jerusalem should have all been zealous for Christ and the Kingdom of God, not for the Law of Moses and Jerusalem... and it is much the same here in America. Some Churches almost act like America is the Kingdom of God, and to not display the flag would be an act of treason against Christ. In my opinion, if you're not a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel first and foremost, you have no claim to following Jesus Christ or looking for the Kingdom of God.


~ Theophilus




There is a long history of American Protestants viewing themselves as a "chosen people" since before there was a United States.  If SMC ever choses to comment, I bet he could tell us a lot about that.


Could not the Almighty have chosen the US to be a "light unto the nations?"

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 2:19PM #9
smcisaac
Posts: 7,979

May 28, 2012 -- 1:31PM, SeraphimR wrote:


There is a long history of American Protestants viewing themselves as a "chosen people" since before there was a United States.  If SMC ever choses to comment, I bet he could tell us a lot about that.


Could not the Almighty have chosen the US to be a "light unto the nations?"




Yes and no.  Here is an excerpt from the closing of John Winthrop's 1630 sermon "A Model of Christian Charity", delivered on board ship before the Puritans disembarked to found the Massachusetts Bay Colony.  It has often since been (mis)quoted by American Protestants to support the notion of the United States as a new chosen nation, divinely ordained to serve as a beacon to the rest of the world, like Israel of old.  But if you listen to Winthrop closely, that's not at all what he was trying to say. Winthrop displays a degree of reverent, self-abnegating humility (and, dare I say it, generosity of spirit) that most of his subsequent patriotic admirers conspicuously seem to lack.


...when God gives a special commission He looks to have it strictly observed in every article; When He gave Saul a commission to destroy Amaleck, He indented with him upon certain articles, and because he failed in one of the least, and that upon a fair pretense, it lost him the kingdom, which should have been his reward, if he had observed his commission.


Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission, and will expect a strict performance of the articles contained in it; but if we shall neglect the observation of these articles which are the ends we have propounded, and, dissembling with our God, shall fall to embrace this present world and prosecute our carnal intentions, seeking great things for ourselves and our posterity, the Lord will surely break out in wrath against us, and be revenged of such a people, and make us know the price of the breach of such a covenant.


Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For this end, we must be knit together, in this work, as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be our God, and delight to dwell among us, as His own people, and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of His wisdom, power, goodness and truth, than formerly we have been acquainted with. We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when He shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, "may the Lord make it like that of New England." For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world. We shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God, and all professors for God's sake. We shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants, and cause their prayers to be turned into curses upon us till we be consumed out of the good land whither we are going.


[Emphasis is mine.]

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 3:05PM #10
smcisaac
Posts: 7,979

Moreover, the premise of the English settlements in North America being societies founded upon a covenant with God, with God as the ultimate head of state and source of authority, never prevailed except in a few parts of New England long ago, and not even completely or permanently there. In addition to the original colonies of Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay, there were similar "holy commonwealths" in Hartford, New Haven, and Saybrook (which within a few decades combined into what is now Connecticut).  Nevertheless, Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson were banished from Massachusetts Bay in the 1630's for preaching freedom of conscience, and Williams established the principles of unfettered religious freedom and complete separation between matters of faith and matters of secular government as the fundamental law of Rhode Island as early as 1636. (Virginia, of course, had been settled even before Plymouth as a strictly commercial, secular venture.)  By 1797, less than a decade after the adoption of the federal Constitution and its First Amendment protecting freedom of religion, President John Adams (a Unitarian from Massachusetts) would testify in a supplemental "signing statement" to the Treaty of Tripoli that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."  In 1833 Massachusetts became the last state in the still-young Union to disestablish its (originally Puritan) churches.  Since then all government in the US has been strictly secular -- but the romantic conceit that the entire US is, or ought to be, a divinely covenanted and divinely favored nation of devout believers governed under divine law by divine authority has never completely been disabused.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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