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Pause Switch to Standard View US Pastor Terry Jones Burns Qur'an Again
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Flag BDboy April 30, 2012 9:07 AM EDT
Mr. Terry Jones now hooked into "Stardom". The infamous "Burning" of the Qur'an made his name known world over, now he is at it again. I have a feeling he is going do it again with some new "Causes" to stir the pot again .....


US pastor Terry Jones burns Quran again


MIAMI (AFP) - Controversial United States (US) pastor Terry Jones has burned more copies of the Quran and a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad to protest the imprisonment in Iran of a Christian clergyman, The Gainesville Sun reported.


The newspaper said Mr Jones and another pastor, who carried out their protest in front of their church in Gainesville, Florida on Saturday, demanded the release of Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani from an Iranian prison.


Mr Jones said Mr Nadarkhani faces execution.


According to the report, the Pentagon urged Mr Jones to reconsider, expressing concern that American soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere could be put at greater risk because of the act.

Source: www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/...

Flag mytmouse57 April 30, 2012 10:40 AM EDT

I support free expression.


I support any person's right to publicly make an idiot of themselves. 


I would, however, love to see the look on Pastor Terry's face when his time comes to cross over, and Jesus introduces him to his good friend, Muhammed. 

Flag mountain_man April 30, 2012 10:42 AM EDT

As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.

Flag Girlchristian April 30, 2012 10:47 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:42AM, mountain_man wrote:


As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.





Agreed.

Flag mytmouse57 April 30, 2012 10:50 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:42AM, mountain_man wrote:


As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.




I agree on that point. As long as an item is your personal property -- be it a flag, Bible, Koran, statue of Elvis -- whatever, you should be free to do with your property as you see fit.

Flag TemplarS April 30, 2012 11:12 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:50AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:42AM, mountain_man wrote:


As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.




I agree on that point. As long as an item is your personal property -- be it a flag, Bible, Koran, statue of Elvis -- whatever, you should be free to do with your property as you see fit.




I agree with these statements.


I would only add:  if this is simply the private act of one of the 300+ million citizens of the US-  why is it news?   Is not the press equally responsible for lending credence to this clown?

Flag Fodaoson April 30, 2012 11:23 AM EDT

NO,NO NO, Please do not burn an Elvis StatueCool  thank you very much 

Flag Girlchristian April 30, 2012 11:33 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:12AM, TemplarS wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:50AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:42AM, mountain_man wrote:


As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.




I agree on that point. As long as an item is your personal property -- be it a flag, Bible, Koran, statue of Elvis -- whatever, you should be free to do with your property as you see fit. 




I agree with these statements.


I would only add:  if this is simply the private act of one of the 300+ million citizens of the US-  why is it news?   Is not the press equally responsible for lending credence to this clown?




Absolutely. The press should be ignoring him and not giving him ANY recognition just as they should do with the Westboro group.

Flag mountain_man April 30, 2012 12:30 PM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:33AM, Girlchristian wrote:

Absolutely. The press should be ignoring him and not giving him ANY recognition just as they should do with the Westboro group.


The press is doing what it was created to do, it's only purpose, what it does best; make a profit. They are not there to bring you news, or even the truth. The press exists to make a profit. Burning Korans sells soap.

Flag TPaine April 30, 2012 6:00 PM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 9:07AM, BDboy wrote:

Mr. Terry Jones now hooked into "Stardom". The infamous "Burning" of the Qur'an made his name known world over, now he is at it again. I have a feeling he is going do it again with some new "Causes" to stir the pot again .....


US pastor Terry Jones burns Quran again


MIAMI (AFP) - Controversial United States (US) pastor Terry Jones has burned more copies of the Quran and a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad to protest the imprisonment in Iran of a Christian clergyman, The Gainesville Sun reported.


The newspaper said Mr Jones and another pastor, who carried out their protest in front of their church in Gainesville, Florida on Saturday, demanded the release of Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani from an Iranian prison.


Mr Jones said Mr Nadarkhani faces execution.


According to the report, the Pentagon urged Mr Jones to reconsider, expressing concern that American soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere could be put at greater risk because of the act.



I was under the impression that if you were trying to get a someone to do something you want him or her to do, you make your case in a positive way. Burning Qur'ans is the best way to insure that the Mullahs who run Iran will execute Mr Nadarkhani. Then again Terry Jones is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Flag solfeggio April 30, 2012 7:38 PM EDT

Here's the Terry Jones I know about and love:


www.imdb.com/name/nm0001402/

Flag mainecaptain April 30, 2012 9:06 PM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 7:38PM, solfeggio wrote:


Here's the Terry Jones I know about and love:


www.imdb.com/name/nm0001402/




Oh Solf. LOL.


Yes your Terry Jones should be the only one we pay attention too.

Flag Idbc April 30, 2012 9:38 PM EDT

Howdy 


"On October 1, 2011 the Iran state media reported that Nadarkhani is facing the death sentence for rape and extortion, not for apostasy and refusing to renounce his religion, as his lawyer, human rights groups and Western news media have reported. They also reported that they had not signed his execution order. Nadarkhani's lawyer said that he believed that Nadarkhani would not be executed."


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youcef_Nadarkhani


In a society that values free speech that speech should not be suprressed because some punk assed savages don't know how to behave like decent human beings and might take a himan life because paper and ink were burned.  If the low life scum don't like it TOUGH SHIT!   Let them burn a copy of the flag, or the bible or the U.S. Constitution.

Flag TemplarS May 1, 2012 9:27 AM EDT

IDBC, we all know about the excesses and defiiciencies of the "justice" system in Iran.


But what does burning a Koran have to do with that?


 


 

Flag MMarcoe May 1, 2012 10:52 PM EDT

Dude, he has a Koran!


 

Flag Idbc May 2, 2012 10:36 AM EDT

 


Howdy Templar


May 1, 2012 -- 9:27AM, TemplarS wrote:


IDBC, we all know about the excesses and defiiciencies of the "justice" system in Iran.


But what does burning a Koran have to do with that?


 


 




Pastor Terry is burning the Quran for pretty much the same reason why an anti-american would burn an american flag.

Flag BDboy May 2, 2012 11:04 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:12AM, TemplarS wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:50AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:42AM, mountain_man wrote:


As long as those Korans are his, he can burn them. It's a stupid thing to do, but we don't have laws against stupidity. If Muslims would stop it with the feigned indignation Jones would stop acting out in public.


It's kind of like flag burning; it only gets a bunch of extremists upset, no one else cares.




I agree on that point. As long as an item is your personal property -- be it a flag, Bible, Koran, statue of Elvis -- whatever, you should be free to do with your property as you see fit. 




I agree with these statements.


I would only add:  if this is simply the private act of one of the 300+ million citizens of the US-  why is it news?   Is not the press equally responsible for lending credence to this clown?




Yeah why is this clown making a headline?


We all agree on free speech. Some people say this is not exactly free speech but "Hate speech".


If this guy has an issue with Iran, burn an Iranian flag. The Qur'an is a different thing, it impacts around 1.7 billion people all over the world. Albeit most Muslims do not care but some of them consider this as an insult to a global faith and in these tense time, we can use less confronttations and more cooperation.


Pastor Jones do not even have a large following. To me he is a "Desperate Pastor" from Florida who is willing to do anything (Including adding risk to US servicemens lives all over the world) to get his "Fifteen minutes".


My two cents...

Flag Idbc May 2, 2012 2:52 PM EDT

 


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:12AM, TemplarS wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:50AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


 Howdy BDboy


 

May 2, 2012 -- 11:04AM, BDboy wrote:


>>>>> Yeah why is this clown making a headline?


We all agree on free speech. Some people say this is not exactly free speech but "Hate speech".



Well those "some people"   are fuching assholes.   And in the United States, burning the Quran, or the Bible, or the American Flag,  is "hate speech" that is protected "free speech". 


"Some people"  have no problem using what "other people"  would say is not exactly free speech but hate speech. 


But when the "other people"  do it back to "some people"  well that is a different story.  


"Some people" have no problem villifying, insulting, politicans and or political parties, that is ok, that is free speech,   but to villify, insult, a Profit, or a religion, especially __________ .   Well that's different. 


 

May 2, 2012 -- 11:04AM, BDboy wrote:

  


If this guy has an issue with Iran, burn an Iranian flag. The Qur'an is a different thing, it impacts around 1.7 billion people all over the world.



  Do you really think the protest would be news if Pastor Terry burned an Iranian flag?   Pastor Terry's issue is that a Christian was tried and convicted by an Islamic Justice System because he was a Chrisitan. 


Are you really serious in claiming that by burning a translation of the Quran that it is going to  "impact"  AROUND 1.7 BILLION MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD? 


 


 

May 2, 2012 -- 11:04AM, BDboy wrote:


 Albeit most Muslims do not care but some of them consider this as an insult to a global faith and in these tense time, we can use less confronttations and more cooperation. 



Albeit only a "tiny minority"  of the 1.7 billion Muslims will be "impacted". 


Because only a "tiny minority"  of  Muslims worldwide would consider the burning of the Quran to be an insult,  free speech-hate speech-thought crimes should be repressed.  


 

May 2, 2012 -- 11:04AM, BDboy wrote:


Pastor Jones do not even have a large following. To me he is a "Desperate Pastor" from Florida who is willing to do anything (Including adding risk to US servicemens lives all over the world) to get his "Fifteen minutes".



I agree.  If U.S. Servicemens or even civilians die Pastor Terry deserves at least some of the blame.  


And if the reverse happens.  If some Muslim Mullah says something that hurts an American's feeling or they find it insulting,  if a Christians gets impacted because of a perceived insult to the Bible and went and burned down a mosque or killed muslims you would be just as understanding.  


 


 


 

Flag mountain_man May 2, 2012 9:56 PM EDT

May 2, 2012 -- 11:04AM, BDboy wrote:

....Pastor Jones do not even have a large following. To me he is a "Desperate Pastor" from Florida who is willing to do anything (Including adding risk to US servicemens lives all over the world) to get his "Fifteen minutes".


Which is a good reason to ignore him. He cannot insult anyone. Burning a Koran doesn't insult anyone. They make themselves upset over it. They need to learn not to let other people control their emotions. The guy is a nutcase. Ignore him.

Flag CharikIeia May 3, 2012 5:31 AM EDT

This is a more general problem of the internet. Nowadays, any moron can find a worldwide audience, it doesn't need much. And anyone who gets a kick out of indignation can harvest many year's worth in a few hours of surfing the internet.


We need to get used to it.


One or two more generations, and everyone will have grown up with this technology, be used to its peculiarities, and the problem that the Terry Joneses of this planet pose today will have vanished.

Flag BDboy May 3, 2012 6:08 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:30PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:33AM, Girlchristian wrote:

Absolutely. The press should be ignoring him and not giving him ANY recognition just as they should do with the Westboro group.


The press is doing what it was created to do, it's only purpose, what it does best; make a profit. They are not there to bring you news, or even the truth. The press exists to make a profit. Burning Korans sells soap.




 


>>>>>> That is why I support Public media in addition to private media.

Flag Idbc May 3, 2012 10:30 AM EDT

Howdy


 


Apr 30, 2012 -- 11:33AM, Girlchristian wrote:

Absolutely. The press should be ignoring him and not giving him ANY recognition just as they should do with the Westboro group.



Should "the press" be forced by law to ignore Pastor Terry and Pastor Phelps?  


I did hear about Pastor Terry burning paper and ink until I read about it in this forum.  


I watch a lot of news from a variety of sources both the left and right, private and public.  


I think that Beliefnet and BDboy should ignore Pastor Terry and not give him any recognition. 


 


 


Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:30PM, mountain_man wrote:


The press is doing what it was created to do, it's only purpose, what it does best; make a profit. They are not there to bring you news, or even the truth. The press exists to make a profit. Burning Korans sells soap.




I think the claim that the only purpose of  the press was to make a profit.  However if the press fails to make a profit, the press will go out of business. 


So what is "the truth"  in this news story that has been reported by "the press"?  


Did Pastor Terry burn a Quran? 


Was it to protest the convicition and death sentence in the Islamic Republic of Iran of a Christian by an Islamic  Court under Sharia Law?


I will certainly agree that the burning of Korans sells soap.    I would also agree that molestation of children by Roman Catholic priests "sells soap".  


The murder of tweleve innocent women and children by an American soldier in Afghanistan "sells soap".  


I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that this has resulted in deaths of Americans as well as their lackeys and Afghani collaboraters.    


Should these news stories be suprressed by "the press" because a "tiny minority"  of people might behave.....inapportiately? 


When an airplane crashes and people die the press will report the truth(?)in order to "sell soap".


When an airplane lands safely "the press"  does not report the truth(?) because safe landings do not "sell soap".   


It is not the fault of the soap sellers it is the fault of the soap buyers.

Flag mytmouse57 May 3, 2012 12:07 PM EDT

So, basically, we have one kind of religious fanatic doing his level best to piss off adherents of another religion. 


Most of us out-grew that sort of thing after we finished fighting over the Tonka trucks in the sandbox in Kindergarten. 

Flag CharikIeia May 3, 2012 1:53 PM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 10:30AM, Idbc wrote:


However if the press fails to make a profit, the press will go out of business.



Not if it is public and tax funded, as BDBoy pointed out.

Flag farragut May 3, 2012 2:54 PM EDT

"Not if it is public and tax funded, as BDBoy pointed out."


 


We've seen that. And what did they say of it? "There's no news in Pravda, and no truth in Izvestia."


Thr free world needs none of that.

Flag CharikIeia May 3, 2012 3:53 PM EDT

You must be living in the more distant past if the USSR is all you can think of here, farragut. In any case, even there & back then, the tax funding was NOT the problem.

Flag farragut May 3, 2012 4:29 PM EDT

I am keenly aware of the recent past, and I am persuaded that those who do not do so risk repeating it. At the same time, I recognize that those who worship the concept of an all-powerful government may see no value in a free press.

Flag CharikIeia May 3, 2012 6:41 PM EDT

A press owned by those who post ads is hardly free... and having publicly funded news is hardly 'government worship'. Why don't you speak normally, but use these buzzwords?

Flag Fodaoson May 3, 2012 7:38 PM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 1:53PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 10:30AM, Idbc wrote:


However if the press fails to make a profit, the press will go out of business.



Not if it is public and tax funded, as BDBoy pointed out.






To be tax supported would mean Taxing authority ,the government, controlled.


We have a free press in the US.  Because some people do not like the message they want to kill the messenger.  If one does not like Fox, change channels, If Someone  does not like the Post  they can read the Times .  A person should accept the fact that they are wrong sometimes an have  biased opinions

Flag mountain_man May 3, 2012 10:27 PM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 1:53PM, CharikIeia wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 10:30AM, Idbc wrote:

However if the press fails to make a profit, the press will go out of business.


Not if it is public and tax funded, as BDBoy pointed out.


That's not so true anymore. PBS takes "donations" from large corporations and if you notice they don't report anything that would make those donors look bad.

Flag Idbc May 3, 2012 10:53 PM EDT

Howdy Fodason


 


May 3, 2012 -- 10:30AM, Idbc wrote:


However if the press fails to make a profit, the press will go out of business.


 

May 3, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Fodaoson wrote:

 Not if it is public and tax funded, as BDBoy pointed out.  


To be tax supported would mean Taxing authority ,the government, controlled




I believe that BDboy was addressing the public press in addition to the private for profit press. 


I am just as wary of the state sponserd gov't  press as the private press.  

How much would you rely on the gov't state press if the republicans are in control?


May 3, 2012 -- 10:30AM, Idbc wrote:


We have a free press in the US.  Because some people do not like the message they want to kill the messenger.  If one does not like Fox, change channels, If Someone  does not like the Post  they can read the Times .  A person should accept the fact that they are wrong sometimes an have  biased opinions




I agree.  However there are those that are of the opinion that "religion" is special.   There are those who have the opinion that the messenger should ignore the likes of Pastor Terry.   Because it could endanger the lives of Americans.   And they are right. 


So far as I know no one has been murdered by Muslims because of this latest burning of english translations of the Quran by Pastor Terry...yet.

Flag Ebon May 4, 2012 4:36 AM EDT

Wow, I think someone wants attention...

Flag Ebon May 4, 2012 4:42 AM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 2:54PM, farragut wrote:

We've seen that. And what did they say of it? "There's no news in Pravda, and no truth in Izvestia."


Thr free world needs none of that.



We've also seen a BBC that has a global reputation for objectivity and impartiality and zealously guards that reputation. The Beeb is funded by the TV license, effectively a tax on owning a television but has rarely descended into being a mouthpiece of the state.


I'm not saying the Beeb is perfect, far from it, but I am saying that the pros and cons of state-owned media are rather more complex than the above quote suggests.

Flag CharikIeia May 4, 2012 9:38 AM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 7:38PM, Fodaoson wrote:


To be tax supported would mean Taxing authority ,the government, controlled.



As Ebon indicates, that is too simplistically put.


We the people have more institutions than just "government", our societies are organised in a multi-layered, non-centralised way, such that government is very much controlled and checked, and its influence on other public institutions remains very limited. Here in Europe at least. Is that very different in the USA?



We have a free press in the US.  Because some people do not like the message they want to kill the messenger.  If one does not like Fox, change channels, If Someone  does not like the Post  they can read the Times .  A person should accept the fact that they are wrong sometimes an have  biased opinions.



What you cannot reliably get in this system is information that cannot be economically exploited, i.e., 'mere news'. Why would "a person need to accept" that, and go for less than the best solution?

Flag NATAS May 4, 2012 11:50 AM EDT

May 4, 2012 -- 4:42AM, Ebon wrote:


May 3, 2012 -- 2:54PM, farragut wrote:

We've seen that. And what did they say of it? "There's no news in Pravda, and no truth in Izvestia."


Thr free world needs none of that.



We've also seen a BBC that has a global reputation for objectivity and impartiality and zealously guards that reputation. The Beeb is funded by the TV license, effectively a tax on owning a television but has rarely descended into being a mouthpiece of the state.


I'm not saying the Beeb is perfect, far from it, but I am saying that the pros and cons of state-owned media are rather more complex than the above quote suggests.




We've also seen a PBS and NPR that has a global reputation for objectivity and impartiality and zealously guard  their reputations. PBS and NPR  are  funded by the state and public and private money. They rarely "sell soap".  


"The BBC is required by its charter to be free from both political and commercial influence and answers only to its viewers and listeners. This political objectivity is sometimes questioned. For instance, The Daily Telegraph (3 August 2005) carried a letter from the KGB defector Oleg Gordievsky, referring to it as "The Red Service". Books have been written on the subject, including anti-BBC works like Truth Betrayed by W J West and The Truth Twisters by Richard Deacon."


"The BBC is regularly accused by the government of the day of bias in favour of the opposition and, by the opposition, of bias in favour of the government. Similarly, during times of war, the BBC is often accused by the UK government, or by strong supporters of British military campaigns, of being overly sympathetic to the view of the enemy. An edition of Newsnight at the start of the Falklands War in 1982 was described as "almost treasonable" by John Page, MP, who objected to Peter Snow saying "if we believe the British"."


 "It has been accused of political bias from across the political spectrum. Internationally, the BBC has been banned from reporting from within some countries which accuse the corporation of working to destabilise their governments"


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_News


I'm not saying the PBS and NPR  are perfect, far from it, but I am saying that the pros and cons of state-owned media are rather more complex than the above quote suggests.


I am also not saying that the news media that depends on "selling soap"  is perfect.  The pro and cons of coporate owned media are rather more complex than the need to "sell soap".  


Both the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal need to "sell soap" to survive.


Neither one of them are considered to be completely objective.  


Tell did you hear of the latest "news(?)" of PastorTerry burning a copy of a translation of the Quran on the BBC?  


Was it a "headline"? 


It certainly was a NOT a "headline" on any of the "soap selling"  T.V. news programs I have watched.  


Nor was it a "headline"  in the soap selling NY Times or World Street Journal.   


The bottomline so far as I am concerned is that in the United States burning a Quran is free speech.  Calling the Profit a child molesting pedophile is free speech.    Putting an image of the Muhammad or ayats from the Quran is free speech.    Now I certainly would understand that Muslims would not approve of it and it would hurt their feelings.   But it does no damage to the religion, to Muhammad or to the Quran.    It could even be considered a "sin".   


However as far as I am concerned it should NEVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BE A CRIME, OR TO BE USED AS A JUSTIFICATION TO THREATEN OR TO EMPLOY VIOLENCE EITHER ON THE ONES ACTING DOING THE "INSULTING"  ACTIONS AND ESPECIALLY ON THOSE WHO HAVE NO MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN BEING AN AMERICAN OR A CHRISTIAN.   


 




Flag Ebon May 4, 2012 2:22 PM EDT

May 4, 2012 -- 11:50AM, NATAS wrote:

Tell did you hear of the latest "news(?)" of PastorTerry burning a copy of a translation of the Quran on the BBC?  


Was it a "headline"?



No to both questions, first I heard of it was here.

Flag Iwantamotto May 4, 2012 6:04 PM EDT

Yeah, this is the first I'm hearing of it as well.  I still say if he wants to make a statement to Muslims, he should be shipped off to the appropriate country where he can do so in person, but I think some people would consider that rather "mean".

Flag Roodog May 4, 2012 11:16 PM EDT

If this stunt results in more rioting and US troops are killed in the  unrest, then "pastor" Jones should be brought up on homicide charges and perhaps be extradited to Afghanistan.

Flag mainecaptain May 5, 2012 2:12 PM EDT

May 4, 2012 -- 6:04PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


Yeah, this is the first I'm hearing of it as well.  I still say if he wants to make a statement to Muslims, he should be shipped off to the appropriate country where he can do so in person, but I think some people would consider that rather "mean".




Its not mean, its justice. This man is trying to get his 15 minutes and doesn't care who gets hurt in because it.

Flag BDboy May 5, 2012 3:51 PM EDT

May 4, 2012 -- 11:16PM, Roodog wrote:


If this stunt results in more rioting and US troops are killed in the  unrest, then "pastor" Jones should be brought up on homicide charges and perhaps be extradited to Afghanistan.




 


>>>>>>>> Pastor of this TINY church has an issue with Muslims (Followers of Islam). If he was so "Touched" by the situation in Iran, he could have burnt an Iranian Flag in protest. 


But he has been trying and burning Qur'an for a while. This is nothing more than "Shock TV".


My personal opinion says, it is "Hate speech" not free speech. He is desperate to get some attention. So much so that, he is cares little that, his little stunt can harm lives of US solders who are defending his punk ass by working many corners of the world.


This is a self-absorbed, greedy, attention hungry desperate man. Far from any average pastors I have met.  

Flag BDboy May 5, 2012 3:58 PM EDT

May 3, 2012 -- 4:29PM, farragut wrote:


I am keenly aware of the recent past, and I am persuaded that those who do not do so risk repeating it. At the same time, I recognize that those who worship the concept of an all-powerful government may see no value in a free press.




 


>>>>>>>> It is not a zero sum game.


As I mentioned I like to see strong "Public Media" IN ADDITION to private media. In the US you have CNN and Fox in the private sector. You also have NPR and PBS which are partly funded by tax payers and partly by viewers.


Beside with internet, you can see and read Iranian Newspapers, Saudi papers and Chinese papers etc.

Flag karbie May 5, 2012 4:12 PM EDT

What creatures like Pastor Terry and the congregation of the Westboro church need is a media shut-out. No coverage of any of their antics on television, etc.


If his purpose was to try to get a Christian released from Iran, he chose the exact wrong way to go about it. All he wanted was to get his face/name in the news. There are several Islamic countries where trying to proselytize Christianity carries a death sentence--in Afghanistan under the Taliban, a woman showing her face could be killed.


Terry is an idiot. I have little use for book-burners in the first place, but doing so with someone else's holiest book to attempt to get leniency is lunacy.


Perhaps he should offer to trade places instead.

Flag BDboy May 10, 2012 1:10 PM EDT

May 5, 2012 -- 4:12PM, karbie wrote:


What creatures like Pastor Terry and the congregation of the Westboro church need is a media shut-out. No coverage of any of their antics on television, etc.



 


>>>>>>> Then he will play the "Victim card". He is a selfish opportunist who is willing to do anything for HIS own name on newspapers. He should be exposed!!     Smile


 


May 5, 2012 -- 4:12PM, karbie wrote:


If his purpose was to try to get a Christian released from Iran, he chose the exact wrong way to go about it. All he wanted was to get his face/name in the news. There are several Islamic countries where trying to proselytize Christianity carries a death sentence--in Afghanistan under the Taliban, a woman showing her face could be killed.


Terry is an idiot. I have little use for book-burners in the first place, but doing so with someone else's holiest book to attempt to get leniency is lunacy.


Perhaps he should offer to trade places instead.




 


>>>>>>>> I don't think he had much concerns about Iran or safety of servicemen stations in many Muslim countries all over the world.


He is a self-absorbed ignorant person, who did not even follow "Biblical Jesus" in showing his "Alledged" concerns.


go figure....

Flag CharikIeia May 10, 2012 6:06 PM EDT

May 5, 2012 -- 4:12PM, karbie wrote:


What creatures like Pastor Terry and the congregation of the Westboro church need is a media shut-out. No coverage of any of their antics on television, etc.



Doesn't work in this time and age, karbie...


We need to cope with the mixed blessings of a fully connected world, information-wise. Whatever moron X1 in village Y1 in nation Z1 does, it will potentially offend and outrage moron X2 in village Y2 in nation Z2.


It is not the media that can do the job for us, but we ourselves must learn to ignore what morons do to grab the attention of other morons.

Flag Roodog May 10, 2012 10:02 PM EDT

Has Jones burnt a Quran? (past tense)


Or is Jones burning Qurans? (presently and continually)

Flag Merope May 18, 2012 1:21 PM EDT

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone.  It's kind of old news but an interesting topic IMO for our forum. 


What do y'all think of Terry Jones - or any Christian clergy - burning a copy of another faith's sacred text?

Flag karbie May 18, 2012 3:38 PM EDT

Well, if I want to be bitchy, I'd go straight to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". He'd go incandescent if anyone burned a Bible. Muslims don't do this because the Old Testament is sacred to them as well. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have at least this history in common.


I assume he got his diploma from one of the same places that churned out papers confirming someone was a licensed minister the guys I knew bought trying to escape Viet Nam.


Burning someone elses' holy book shows contempt and an inability to understand that others may suffer for their actions. It's a publicity stunt, not a demonstration of faith to me. (What it does demonstrate is that the show-off yelling "Watch me do this!" has an I.Q. measured to the right of the decimal point.)

Flag Theo May 18, 2012 6:37 PM EDT

Burning someone elses' holy book shows contempt and an inability to understand that others may suffer for their actions. It's a publicity stunt, not a demonstration of faith to me.



Perhaps, but while I do not agree with Terry Jones for the things he's done to offend Islam, frankly I do not much like the things Muslims Fundamentalists have done to offend Christians and Jews either. Islamists are the provocateurs for the most part, and they stage despicable things and blow innocent people up every day to generate terror as well as media attention... in Western terminology it's called... "raising public awareness." And it works, everybody in the world knows that Iranian Muslims, and most other Muslims are pissed off at the rest of the world, especially Israel and the United States.


In the case of Terry Jones, apparently he is trying to raise public awareness about the plight of this Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani being held in Iran. I hope you know that in Iran you and I would be murdered for our blasphemous beliefs... they don't much like anybody over there who is not united in lock step with them... including other Muslims who do not agree with them. Sure, much can be said about the antics of Terry Jones... but would you know that Iran has a Christian minister held in jail waiting to be executed for his Christian beliefs... if pastor Jones had not burned a Quran???


My question to you is this - do you care about his plight?


Or is it more important to you that Terry Jones did something to stir up a hornet's nest of nutcase Islamists, which might result in them targeting innocent people in revenge?


Personally, I side with Christians who are being persecuted for their faith in Christ, like pastor Youcef Nadarkhani, who might have to pay the ultimate sacrifice for obeying the command of His Lord, to go into all nations, make disciples, and teach them to observe everything Christ taught.


What you seem to not understand is that there is no way to get along with a hornets' nest, Islamists are aggressive and invasive and they will sting you one way or another. Of course stirring them up on purpose is not the best way to deal with them... aka Terry Jones. Even so, the only way to deal with some hornets' nest is to call in the exterminator, either that or its damned if you do something yourself, or damned if you don't.


~ Theophilus

Flag Iwantamotto May 18, 2012 6:53 PM EDT

Theo:  And it works, everybody in the world knows that Iranian Muslims, and most other Muslims are pissed off at the rest of the world, especially Israel and the United States.


What gets lost in the arguing, though, is that Muslims are pissed for a reason.  Sure, a lot of it is BS, just as pissed off Christians are usually full of crap.  However, when the US is preferential to Israel for nothing but sick reasons (either the normal political "we use all our friends" stuff or the blatantly stupid "Jayzus comes back if we kiss Israel's ass ... oh, and He kills them all at the end, our bad"), or just tramps over countries' sovereignity just for oil or to piss off Russia or China, why can't they be upset?  People in the US don't like it when it's done to us.  We should grant the same to others.


I hope you know that in Iran you and I would be murdered for our blasphemous beliefs... they don't much like anybody over there who is not united in lock step with them


And pissing them off more helps how?


but would you know that Iran has a Christian minister held in jail waiting to be executed for his Christian beliefs... if pastor Jones had not burned a Quran???


Well, thanks to him, we'll probably be seeing that guy's head on a stake any day now.


Personally, I side with Christians who are being persecuted for their faith in Christ, like pastor Youcef Nadarkhani, who might have to pay the ultimate sacrifice for obeying the command of His Lord, to go into all nations, make disciples, and teach them to observe everything Christ taught.


Christ was bad about vandalizing other people's stuff, but He never went over to a centurion's base or whatever and firebombed it.  That kind of thing would ENSURE His people's destruction, which is incredibly dumb.

Flag Theo May 18, 2012 7:39 PM EDT

motto:

What gets lost in the arguing, though, is that Muslims are pissed for a reason. 


Oh, I hardly think that message gets lost at all... that is all liberals in government, the media and academia want to talk about. And frankly I agree, Muslims are pissed off at the US for many reasons, one of the biggest is because our government has been meddling in their affairs. But if you want to know whatz really eating  them, it's because they, (i.e. Islam) once presided over the largest Empire on Earth... but because of the West, (the Brits, Europe and America) they have been reduced to warring tribes and divided into secular nations, instead of Islamic Nations, and they want to sit at the head of the table again, they want to be the ones calling the shots... they want to rule the world.


So, I have to ask - which would you prefer? If the USA takes a back seat to Iran, and lets them have their way in the middle east and the rest of the world... Are you prepared for a world dominated by Muslims or more likely, the Chinese?


Personally I have a lengthy laundry list of things the US Government does that I am absolutely opposed to - but we ( the USA) are not the only bad-guys out there; none of our detractors are any better than US. And right now, we have a huge tactical advantage over Iran and the rest of the Muslim world, while we, for the most part, show our civility and humanitarianism (admittedly among other things not so noble) by not rubbing them out and enduring their insults and provocations.


So who would you prefers rule the world?


As a Christian my prayer is for God's kingdom to come and for His will to be done, on earth as it is in heaven. I only favor the USA as the lesser of many evils... "this world with devils filled..."


~ Theophilus

Flag jesusfreakgal May 22, 2012 3:04 PM EDT

I think it is possible what this pastor has done could endanger the life of this man, and possibly the lives of Christians and/ or americans all over the world. Part of me says we should ignore it, but part of me says that people like this, especially if part of the reason they are doing such a thing is for fame, would probably try whatever he/ she could to let people know what they did, such as video record it, and put it on a blog and youtube and other sites until someone sees it and starts telling others about it and so forth. Or he may actually believe this is the only way to stop the 'injustice' of the man's impending excecution (which I disagree), and is what any good Christian would do. I wouldn't want to  confront this man (that is not a Christ like thing to do anyway), in fear that he would judge me or be excremely harsh and cruel (he might not be that way though, I can't say). Aside from that, aside from times where me might offend or hurt a non Christian where it has nothing to do with us being Christian, and actually doing true service for God/ what God truly wishes for us and what not, we should be attempting to never insult, hurt or offend anyone for any reason.


JFG

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer May 22, 2012 9:40 PM EDT

Honestly, I think it is rather tasteless and childish to burn other religions' holy texts just to piss them off...which is pretty much what this amounts to. 'Quran burnings' like this say nothing about Muslims, Iran, etc and everything about Terry Jones and whoever (if anyone) is going along with this stunt. Also, while I wouldn't appreciate it if someone burned a bunch of Bibles and said nasty things about Christians (actually, the latter happens quite a bit on Bnet), I figure God can deal with those things on His own without me having to start a riot over it.

Flag Ironhold May 23, 2012 1:43 PM EDT

May 22, 2012 -- 9:40PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


Honestly, I think it is rather tasteless and childish to burn other religions' holy texts just to piss them off...which is pretty much what this amounts to. 'Quran burnings' like this say nothing about Muslims, Iran, etc and everything about Terry Jones and whoever (if anyone) is going along with this stunt. Also, while I wouldn't appreciate it if someone burned a bunch of Bibles and said nasty things about Christians (actually, the latter happens quite a bit on Bnet), I figure God can deal with those things on His own without me having to start a riot over it.




It's all about the shock value.


For example, a lot of the "Good Christian" street preachers who protest outside of Mormon facilities think it's funny to tie a string to a Book of Mormon and drag it on the ground or wear (potentially stolen) temple garments around their necks like towels.


A few go so far as to openly desecrate said garments, such as a guy who pretended to wipe himself in public with a pair.


All it does is make them seem like tools and the people they're targeting seem comparitively rational.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN May 27, 2012 11:05 PM EDT

The reason Pastor Terry gave for burning the Quran was because another christian Mr Nadarkhani faces execution for being a christian. 


www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/sep/27...


Now I doubt very much wether the burning of the Quran is going to have any effect whatsoever on what is going to happen to Mr Nadarkhani.


If anyone does die as a result of the burning of the Quran it is the responsiblity of those who are committing the violence.   To blame Pastor Terry is complete and absolute bullshit.  


It is a legimate form of free speech.  Wether you are burning the flag, the bible, or dragging the bookof mormon on the ground.  

Flag smcisaac May 28, 2012 12:35 AM EDT

Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter who wrongs first.  That it's free speech is irrelevant.


It's stupid and hateful to deliberately do something that you know is offensive to someone else.  Especially if it's gravely offensive to their religion.  Especially if your only purpose is to express hatred.  Answering even your enemies with love, concern, and respect, rather than hatred and contempt, is what Jesus taught.  What Terry (he doesn't deserve the title "Pastor") does is not Christian; it is in fact antichrist.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN May 28, 2012 10:49 PM EDT

May 28, 2012 -- 12:35AM, smcisaac wrote:


Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter who wrongs first.  That it's free speech is irrelevant.


It's stupid and hateful to deliberately do something that you know is offensive to someone else.  Especially if it's gravely offensive to their religion.  Especially if your only purpose is to express hatred.  Answering even your enemies with love, concern, and respect, rather than hatred and contempt, is what Jesus taught.  What Terry (he doesn't deserve the title "Pastor") does is not Christian; it is in fact antichrist.




I disagree that the burning of the Quran in this case is "wrong".  


Now it "may" be stupid to burn the Quran because it will have no bearing on the outcome of the case Mr Nadarkhani.


I agree that Pastor Terry hates the evil persecution of a Christian in Iran by Muslims. 


It is the sin that Pastor Terry hates and not the sinners i.e. those Muslims in Iran who have sentenced Mr Nadarkhani to death for the sin of free speech, the evangelising of the true religion.


While I or Pastor Terry or any other christian maybe compelled to have a concern for a love and respect for enemies I do not think that extends the oppression of Christianns, nor to the religion of Islam or to the Quran.  


I do not think that I or any other Christian should "respect" a book, that denies fundamental doctrines and dogmas of Chrisitanity.  


The Quran explictly denies the Jesus is God. 


The Quran expliclty denies that Jesus was even crucified. 


The Quran  explictly states that both the Old and New Testaments are "corrupted".  


The Quran explictly states that all the Prophets in the Bible INCLUDING JESUS were MUSLIMS!


Now you may believe that you are bound to respect the Quran, but I do not.  


 


 



 




 

Flag smcisaac May 29, 2012 4:01 AM EDT

And what does Jesus say about that?


"Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.


"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.


"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.


"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


"Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. ...


 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.


"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven.  For he makes his sun rise on both the evil and on the good, and sends his rain on both the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love only those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the pagans do the same? Be perfect, instead, in the same way that your heavenly Father is perfect. ...


"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven."

Flag smcisaac May 29, 2012 4:17 AM EDT

May 28, 2012 -- 10:49PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


The Quran explictly states that all the Prophets in the Bible INCLUDING JESUS were MUSLIMS!




And indeed, they were.  (Do you even know what the definition of 'Muslim' is?  It is one who voluntarily submits to God.  It is only because Muhammad claimed to be a prophet who received a new revelation from God in the Qur'an, which Jews and Christians do not recognize as an authentic revelation, that after Muhammad 'Muslims' were differentiated from followers of the other Abrahamic faiths. Before Muhammad all monotheistic believers were Muslims in the broad sense of the word.)


How much do you really know about the Qur'an and the people who cherish it that you would so eagerly and categorically express your contempt for them?  How much do you really know about the love of God and of Christ that you would?


Obviously, Christians do not take the Qur'an as scripture, and therefore do not agree with some of the 'new' things it 'reveals' about God and about Jesus.  But disagreement does not justify contempt and disrespect.  Is deliberately insulting and provoking millions of others, by burning their holy book, in retribution for a a perceived offense by only one or a few of them against only one Christian, the kind of behavior that Jesus practiced or taught?  Is it the kind of behavior that redeems sinners or reconciles enemies or quells fear and resentment?  Is it grace?


Do you also think God approved of the Crusades?

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer May 30, 2012 6:05 PM EDT

Would you (generic 'you') want someone to burn Bibles just to put their 'opinions' of you and your religion in your face? No? Then don't do it to anyone else.


Again, 'you' here is generic-my point is to give other people the same consideration we'd want for ourselves.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN May 31, 2012 1:32 PM EDT

"And indeed, they were.  (Do you even know what the definition of 'Muslim' is?  It is one who voluntarily submits to God.  It is only because Muhammad claimed to be a prophet who received a new revelation from God in the Qur'an, which Jews and Christians do not recognize as an authentic revelation, that after Muhammad 'Muslims' were differentiated from followers of the other Abrahamic faiths. Before Muhammad all monotheistic believers were Muslims in the broad sense of the word.)"


Indeed they were NOT.  The "definatition" of the word "muslim"  is one who submits to God.  There is nothing in the "defination" about "voluntary".  


Now Muhammad can "claim" he was "prophet" and he can "claim" that he was receiving "revelations" and "Muslims" can "believe" it.  


However as a Christian it would be my understanding that MUHAMMAD IS A FALSE PROPHET. 


And the fact that the Quran denies core priniciples of of Christianity that would lead me to "believe" that it is not just an inauthentic revelation BUT A FALSE REVELATION. 


Since it was Muhammad who "claimed" that core beliefs of the true religion are false then that would make MUHAMMAD THE ANTI-CHRIST.


Since Christians still believe that they are obeying God then in the "broad" sense of the word YOU ARE A MUSLIM AND ALL MONOTHEIST, are Muslims. If they believe that they are obeying God. 


In the "broad"  sense I could say that since Abraham was was Jewish, and since Christians and Muslims believe that Abraham was a Prophet then Christians and Muslims are Jewish. 


 


Muslims believe that Jesus was a Prophet of Islam.   But it would be a real streach to say they are Christians.  


"How much do you really know about the Qur'an and the people who cherish it that you would so eagerly and categorically express your contempt for them?"


How much do you "really" know about the Quran? 


Have you ever read the entire Quran? 


Because I have read the entire Quran. 


What I do know about Muslims is that there are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims. 


What the burning of the Quran is, is an expression of contempt for what the bad Muslims have done by sentencing a Christian to death for being a Chrisitan. 


 


"Obviously, Christians do not take the Qur'an as scripture, and therefore do not agree with some of the 'new' things it 'reveals' about God and about Jesus. "


Obviously, Christians do not take the Qur'an as scripture, and therefore do not agree with some of the 'FALSE' things it 'reveals' about God and about Jesus.


"But disagreement does not justify contempt and disrespect."


But sentencing a man to death for his religious beliefs, even if they are "new" or "false"  does justify contempt and disrespect not only for the actions but for the people responsible for those actions.


"Do you also think God approved of the Crusades?"


Do you think that God approved of the Muslim Conquest of Jersursalem and the Holy Land? 


I repeat, so far as I am aware not one single person has been killed as a result of the latest burning of the Quran.   


So it would appear to me that the 1.5 billion Muslims have been able to pass the test of this latest insult to their false religion and false scripture.  


Do you think God would approve of saying that Pastor Terry is the anti-christ? 


 


 


 

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN May 31, 2012 1:46 PM EDT

May 30, 2012 -- 6:05PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


Would you (generic 'you') want someone to burn Bibles just to put their 'opinions' of you and your religion in your face? No? Then don't do it to anyone else.


Again, 'you' here is generic-my point is to give other people the same consideration we'd want for ourselves.




No, but I would understand that if a Muslim was sentenced to death for being a Muslim then other Muslims might burn and american flag or a bible as a protest.  


It would not bother me one tiny little bit if a Muslim burned a Bible.  


But what would you do if someone burned a Bible? 


Would you threaten them with death?  


Would you threaten someone else who had nothing to do with burning of the Bible other than they were of the same nationality, ethincity or religion? 


Now all you fine Christians have condmened and questioned the motives of Pastor Terry but have not said nary a word of condmenation against the Muslims who have sentenced a Christian to death. 


Personally I think that sentencing a person to death for being a Christian is FAR MORE INSULTING TO THE 1.5 BILLION MUSLIMS AND TO THE RELIGION OF ISLAM.  Than the burning of the Quran.  


 


 




 

Flag smcisaac May 31, 2012 8:27 PM EDT

Truechristian, you are a hard case.  As Paul said to the Corinthians, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.  Seriously.  You could use another healthy dose of all three.

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer June 2, 2012 9:44 PM EDT

When she moved the thread here, Merope (my co-host) asked what we think about clergy (or anyone, really) burning other people's holy texts.  She did not mention anything else beyond that, so I did not answer anything else beyond that. Please do not assume facts not in evidence.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 8, 2012 4:26 PM EDT

May 31, 2012 -- 8:27PM, smcisaac wrote:


Truechristian, you are a hard case.  As Paul said to the Corinthians, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.  Seriously.  You could use another healthy dose of all three.





smcisaac


Thank you for your opinion on what you think. 


It is my love for God AND for me fellow Christians that I post as I do. 


It appears to me that those who "assume" that Pastor Terry's burning of the Quran, is due to his desire to be a "superstar", or that he is not or should not be called a "pastor"  or who "assume" that he is the "anti-christ" need the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit alot more than I do. 


I understand that neither you nor most other Christians, wether clergy or lay would not burn a Quran. However I also understand the reason that Pastor Terry  gave for burning the Quran. Ineffectual as it appears to be and I repeat, so far as I know, there have not been any deaths that have resulted from this ineffectual  act of protest. 


 What is "sacred" is what the Quran says and NOT THE PAPER AND INK. 


 

Flag smcisaac June 8, 2012 5:28 PM EDT

Jun 8, 2012 -- 4:26PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


It is my love for God AND for me fellow Christians that I post as I do.




If that were true as true as you would like to believe, your words would express love and compassion, not only toward God and your fellow Christians, but even toward those who were very different from you, even toward the prodigal sons and the Samaritan women of our time.  Instead, your words drip with contempt, and you applaud the contemptuous bigotry of others. 


You and I may not hold the Qur'an to be sacred as Islam does, but burning something that is cherished by others merely to display your contempt for them is an expression of hate, not love.  And make no mistake, Jones is achieving nothing else except giving voice to his hatred. He is deliberately offending, not only a few cruel persecutors of Christians, but also  hundreds of millions of other people who have done nothing wrong.


If and to the extent that there really are Christians being persecuted or killed by some Muslims somewhere in the world because of Muslim misunderstanding of Christianity, burning the Qur'an does nothing to improve the lot of their Christian victims, but it most certainly exacerbates the persecutors' hostility to Christianity, and it also sows ill will toward Christianity among countless other Muslims who had no previous reason to resent us.  If your hope is that at least some of those Muslims might eventually convert to Christianity, or that other Christians will complete the work of the persecuted Christians who were frustrated by hostility from a few misguided Muslims in their efforts to witness the Good News of God's unconditional love and redemption for all people, then insulting the objects of your hope, rather than modeling God's unconditional love toward them in your own words and deeds, is a recipe for certain failure.


If you cannot see that, then you are blinded by hate for your brother, not inspired by love of God.  As both Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. are reputed to have said, "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 11, 2012 11:56 AM EDT

 


Jun 8, 2012 -- 4:26PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


It is my love for God AND for me fellow Christians that I post as I do.




Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:



If that were true as true as you would like to believe, your words would express love and compassion, not only toward God and your fellow Christians, but even toward those who were very different from you, even toward the prodigal sons and the Samaritan women of our time.  Instead, your words drip with contempt, and you applaud the contemptuous bigotry of others. 



Unlike your words towards about the "anti-christ"-prodigal Pastor Terry which drip with love and compassion are completely free of contempt? 


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:


You and I may not hold the Qur'an to be sacred as Islam does, but burning something that is cherished by others merely to display your contempt for them is an expression of hate, not love.  And make no mistake, Jones is achieving nothing else except giving voice to his hatred.



I will repeat as many times as neccessary that it is the words in the Quran that Muslims hold sacred and not the ink and paper.  


I will repeat again my "contempt"  my "opposition" is not directed towards Muslims it is directed towards what those few cruel  Muslims persecutors  Iran have done in this case. 


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:


 He is deliberately offending, not only a few cruel persecutors of Christians, but also  hundreds of millions of other people who have done nothing wrong.



He is no more delibrately offending the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet than the few cruel misguided Muslims in Iran are delibrately trying to offend the 2.2 billion Christians on the planet.


Personally I think burning a Quran is much less offensive than  sentencing a man to death for the crime.


  


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:


If and to the extent that there really are Christians being persecuted or killed by some Muslims somewhere in the world because of Muslim misunderstanding of Christianity,



If ? I think there is very, very,very, very little doubt that there are some Christians being killed by some Muslims. 


If Pastor Terry burned a Quran it is because of his "misunderstanding" of Christianity.  Which everybody(?) knows is the most tolerant and peaceful of all the Abrahamic religions.   


Or


If Pastor Terry burned a Quran it is because of his "misunderstanding" of Islam. 


To what extent and as to why some Muslims are killing some Christians but I have my doubts that the reason is because of a "misunderstanding" of Christianity.   What all Muslims understand is the Jesus was not, nor is not God.  What all Muslims do understand is the the gravest, the worst sin that a human being can commit is to ascribe "partners to God". 


 


 


  


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:


 burning the Qur'an does nothing to improve the lot of their Christian victims, but it most certainly exacerbates the persecutors' hostility to Christianity, and it also sows ill will toward Christianity among countless other Muslims who had no previous reason to resent us. 



I do agree that the burning of A Quran or Qurans,  will do nothing to improve the lot of the Christian victims of Muslims who misunderstand Christianity. IF there are some Christian victims who persecuted and killed by some Muslims and if it is because they "misunderstand" Christianity. 


I agree that the burning of a Quran, or to be more precise an English translation of THE Quran would sow hostility in some Muslims just as the persecution and killing of some Christians will and has sown resentment and hositlity in some Christians towards some or even all Muslims.


As I stated earlier I don't see any evidence that burning of a Quran has had any effect one those Muslims in Iran who are involved in the persecution of Christian pastor in Iran.  And so far as I know it has not caused any further persecution of Christians either in Iran or anywhere else. 


 


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:28PM, smcisaac wrote:


 If your hope is that at least some of those Muslims might eventually convert to Christianity, or that other Christians will complete the work of the persecuted Christians who were frustrated by hostility from a few misguided Muslims in their efforts to witness the Good News of God's unconditional love and redemption for all people, then insulting the objects of your hope, rather than modeling God's some love toward them in your own words and deeds, is a recipe for certain failure.


If you cannot see that, then you are blinded by hate for your brother, not inspired by love of God.  As both Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. are reputed to have said, "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."




I would hope that some of my Muslim brothers become my Christian brothers because if they do not then they will not be "redeemed".


What you are blind to is my repeated posts that I do not have hatred for my Muslim brothers.   What I do have hatred for is the actions of some of my Muslim brothers who are involved in the persecution of my Christian brothers. 


The "eye for an eye" does NOT APPLY IN THIS INSTANCE! 


I am not advocting that a Muslim be convicted for the "crime-sin" of being a Muslim and for trying to "convert-revert"  Christitians to Islam. 


I would also add that it is a "misunderstanding" of the "eye for an eye" to be taken "literally".

Flag smcisaac June 11, 2012 4:53 PM EDT

Okay, so I'm not going to change your mind.  But even if Jones were giving a sound Christian witness, he is being a coward about it.   It's easy to burn a Qur'an in Florida, but it still doesn't accomplish anything.  If he wants to protest the Muslim clerics who are imprisoning Christians in Iran, let him act like one of the saints and go over there and burn one and let the chips fall where they may.  Then at least he would be expressing himself to the authorities who matter, in a way that matters.  Instead he's behaving like the cut-up in the back of the 5th grade classroom who makes disparaging comments about the teacher when her back is turned, but isn't willing to raise his hand.


Flag theinterpreter June 13, 2012 10:03 AM EDT

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:40AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


I support free expression.


I support any person's right to publicly make an idiot of themselves. 


I would, however, love to see the look on Pastor Terry's face when his time comes to cross over, and Jesus introduces him to his good friend, Muhammed. 



Muhammed and his followers are the 7th head of the beast.
May God bless pastor Jones who is protesting Iran's arrest of a Christian pastor there. 

Flag smcisaac June 13, 2012 4:08 PM EDT

Demonizing people who sincerely try to follow God in the best way they know how, just because their beliefs and scriptures do not match our own in all respects, is more likely to be a clue to the presence of the beast -- in either faith tradition.

Flag theinterpreter June 15, 2012 8:36 PM EDT

Muslims are also killing Christians in Nigeria (committing religious genocide), yet no one does anthing or even reports it. 

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 18, 2012 11:19 PM EDT

Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:53PM, smcisaac wrote:


Okay, so I'm not going to change your mind.  But even if Jones were giving a sound Christian witness, he is being a coward about it. 



I don't think a sound Christian seeks to be opressed or risk martyrdom for his faith.  A sound Christian may accept it when it is forced upon him.  I think a sound Christian would prefer not to be in the position to have to make that choice.


 


Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:53PM, smcisaac wrote:


  It's easy to burn a Qur'an in Florida, but it still doesn't accomplish anything.  {/quote]


 


I would never claim that Pastor Terry was a "saint". 


Nor would I imply that because he didn't go to Iran that he was a coward.




 


Why is it easy to burn a Quran in Florida and not in Iran? 


I will agree that the burning of the Quran in Florida does not accomplish the Pastor in Iran from not being persecuted.    


However I do think that it does accomplish an awareness of the persecution of this Christian in Iran. 


Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:53PM, smcisaac wrote:

 


 If he wants to protest the Muslim clerics who are imprisoning Christians in Iran, let him act like one of the saints and go over there and burn one and let the chips fall where they may. 



 


Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:53PM, smcisaac wrote:


Then at least he would be expressing himself to the authorities who matter, in a way that matters.  Instead he's behaving like the cut-up in the back of the 5th grade classroom who makes disparaging comments about the teacher when her back is turned, but isn't willing to raise his hand.





I will never be able to convince you that the reason that Pastor Terry burned the Quran was to protest the death sentence given to the pastor in Iran by the Islamic Justice system.  That is not the "prank" of a "fifth grader". 

Flag smcisaac June 19, 2012 7:04 AM EDT

I don't doubt that that was what provoked him, but even a juvenile prank requires the intelligent application of irony, humor, and foresight.  This is more akin to the narcissistic tantrum of an infant, or a gang defacing property to mark its turf.


Two wrongs don't make a right.  It's really that simple.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 19, 2012 8:42 AM EDT

Jun 19, 2012 -- 7:04AM, smcisaac wrote:


I don't doubt that that was what provoked him, but even a juvenile prank requires the intelligent application of irony, humor, and foresight.  This is more akin to the narcissistic tantrum of an infant, or a gang defacing property to mark its turf.


Two wrongs don't make a right.  It's really that simple.




I don't rhink that what Pastor Terry did is the same as a juvenile prank or a gang defacing property to mark its turf.  If Pastor Terry defaced a Mosque or the property of Muslim in protest of the persecution then it would be similar to a gang defacing the property of someone else.  What Pastor Terry did was to "deface" his own property.  A street gang "tag" property that is not theirs for a different reason and intent. 


What is not "simple" is that it was "wrong" for Pastor Terry to burn his copy of the Quran because he was provked by the persecution of the pastor in Quran. 


If I understand you correctly you think that it was wrong for Pastor Terry to burn the Quran because the 1.5 billion Muslims would be offended and that is "wrong" to "offend" them for any reason.


 


I would also add that the Muslims in Iran probably do not think it was "wrong" of them to find the pastor in Iran as being "wrong".   Nor do I think that they would consider what they did as being a juvinile prank, a marking of their terroritory or an infantile tantrum.


  


My question to you is "What do you think is the "right-Christian" thing that Pastor Terry should have done in response to this "wrong"?    


Jun 15, 2012 -- 8:36PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Muslims are also killing Christians in Nigeria (committing religious genocide), yet no one does anthing or even reports it.




That is a different subject. What they is in common is that Muslims are involved. What is different is that it is not the government in Nigeria that is committing the genocide.  The Muslims in Iran are not "commiting genocide" of Christians. 


It is not true that no one is doing anything to stop the genocide.  The government of Nigera is doing something to try and stop the genocide but what they are doing has not been effective in stopping the genocide of Christians in Nigeria. 


I have heard of someone reporting the genocide of Christians in Nigeria by a gang of juvinile, narcissitic Muslim, the Boka Harum on the Al Jeezera and on Link T.V.  cable news stations. 


I have also heard on the same stations that Christians are killing Muslims in response to this "provocation".  They are killing Muslims both in self-defense and in revenge. 


If I understand smcisaac correctly it would is "wrong-not Christian" for the Christians in Nigera to kill the Muslims because it is "simply" wrong.  Jesus said to love your enemy,  to turn the other cheek, not to kill them.  


It is wrong to kill even if you are being killed because two wrongs to not make a right. 

Flag smcisaac June 19, 2012 9:28 AM EDT

It is wrong to deliberately, gratuitiously offend strangers. It is also wrong to inflame resentment and controversy rather than try to heal it.  "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1


By your logic, Timothy McVeigh was equally justified in blowing up the Federal building in Olkahoma  and killing 800+ people to call attention to what he perceived to be the government's misdeeds at Waco.  By your logic, Al Qaeda was equally justified in attacking the World Trade Center and killing 3000+ people to call attention to what they perceived to be the ungodly behavior of Western nations in the Middle East.  The difference between what they did and what Jones did is only in degree, not in kind.


Flag smcisaac June 19, 2012 9:38 AM EDT

Jun 19, 2012 -- 8:42AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


My question to you is "What do you think is the "right-Christian" thing that Pastor Terry should have done in response to this "wrong"?    



If his purpose was to draw attention to the situation, there are all sorts of sensational stunts he could have tried that wouldn't involve an aggressive, intentionally insulting display of disrespect and contempt toward more than a billion fellow believers in God who follow a sister Abrahamic religious tradition.


If his purpose was to overcome division and misunderstanding, or even to try to demonstrate the superior theological merits of Christianity over Islam, he could have tried to organize a public interfaith dialogue with local Muslim clerics.


But if his purpose was to call attention to himself as a boor and a hypocrite, inflame resentment and misunderstanding, and and make all Christianity and all Christians look smug, ignorant and hostile to the eyes of outsiders, his choice of tactics was brilliant.


I have also heard on the same stations that Christians are killing Muslims in response to this "provocation".  They are killing Muslims both in self-defense and in revenge.



And you don't draw a moral distinction between self-defense and retaliation?

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 21, 2012 9:11 PM EDT

Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, smcisaac wrote:


It is wrong to deliberately, gratuitiously offend strangers. It is also wrong to inflame resentment and controversy rather than try to heal it.  "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1



I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran. 


I would also add that a soft answer did not turn away the wrath of the Muslims in Iran that sentenced the pastor in Iran to death.  


And from I have seen so far there is very, very little, if any anger stirred up among the 1.5 billion brothers of the "Abrahamic Religions". 


Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, smcisaac wrote:


By your logic, Timothy McVeigh was equally justified in blowing up the Federal building in Olkahoma  and killing 800+ people to call attention to what he perceived to be the government's misdeeds at Waco.  By your logic, Al Qaeda was equally justified in attacking the World Trade Center and killing 3000+ people to call attention to what they perceived to be the ungodly behavior of Western nations in the Middle East.  The difference between what they did and what Jones did is only in degree, not in kind.



By my logic what Timothy Mc Veigh and Al Qeda would be justified if he burned the American flag or the U.S.  Constitution in response to what they perceived to be misdeeds in Waco or the Middle East.  That would be a very, very, very, very big difference in degree.  


It do not think that burning a flag, or the Constitution is the same kind of thing. 


The death of people and the burning of ink and paper are not the same kind of thing.


Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, smcisaac wrote:


If his purpose was to overcome division and misunderstanding, or even to try to demonstrate the superior theological merits of Christianity over Islam, he could have tried to organize a public interfaith dialogue with local Muslim clerics.



But it was not is purpose to do any of the things that you mentioned.  It was to draw publicity and awareness to the persecution of a Christian in Iran by Muslims.  


 


 


Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, smcisaac wrote:


But if his purpose was to call attention to himself as a boor and a hypocrite, inflame resentment and misunderstanding, and and make all Christianity and all Christians look smug, ignorant and hostile to the eyes of outsiders, his choice of tactics was brilliant.



But his purpose was not to do any of the things that you listed. 


But "if" it was his choice of tactic was a brilliant failure.  


I have not seen any evidence that his choice of tactics was successful in making ALL Christianity or ALL Christians look smug, ignorant or hostile to ALL Muslims. 


By YOUR LOGIC, the tactic of the Muslims in Iran succeeded in making ALL Muslims look hostile, violent and hateful to ALL 2 billion Christians.  


If that was their intention then it was a failure. 


As to calling him a boor and hypocrite:


"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Proverbs 15:1  


 


 


Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:28AM, smcisaac wrote:


And you don't draw a moral distinction between self-defense and retaliation?



The difference between self defense and retaliation is the same kind of thing.  Both involve violence and killing.   Both involve ignoring "turning the other cheek".   Both are done "by the sword."  Both involve "enemies"  and it is difficult to reoncile "love your enemies"  with violence that would be neccessary to  for self-defense. 


I would ask where did Jesus validate "self-defense". 


It appears to me that Pastor Terry was trying to defend, un-successfully, an innocent Christian in Iran.    

Flag smcisaac June 22, 2012 3:15 PM EDT

Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:11PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran.




Even so, he chose to do it in a way that also expressed contempt for the whole religion and its 1 1/2 billion followers, not only the few whom you say he intended to insult. 


Anyway, how much insult and hatred can one express and still be in the right, rather than in the wrong? Is there a difference between rightly giving offense and wrongly giving offense, between right hatred and wrong hatred? Is it ever right to behave in a way that can resonably be expected to provoke hateful feelings in others? What about this incident, which took place just last week?  Were these self-described "Bible Believers" acting rightly, or wrongly? 


"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.  And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."  I John 4:20-21

Flag theinterpreter June 22, 2012 5:57 PM EDT

Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:38AM, smcisaac wrote:


Jun 19, 2012 -- 8:42AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


My question to you is "What do you think is the "right-Christian" thing that Pastor Terry should have done in response to this "wrong"?    



If his purpose was to draw attention to the situation, there are all sorts of sensational stunts he could have tried that wouldn't involve an aggressive, intentionally insulting display of disrespect and contempt toward more than a billion fellow believers in God who follow a sister Abrahamic religious tradition.


If his purpose was to overcome division and misunderstanding, or even to try to demonstrate the superior theological merits of Christianity over Islam, he could have tried to organize a public interfaith dialogue with local Muslim clerics.


But if his purpose was to call attention to himself as a boor and a hypocrite, inflame resentment and misunderstanding, and and make all Christianity and all Christians look smug, ignorant and hostile to the eyes of outsiders, his choice of tactics was brilliant.


I have also heard on the same stations that Christians are killing Muslims in response to this "provocation".  They are killing Muslims both in self-defense and in revenge.



And you don't draw a moral distinction between self-defense and retaliation?



Muslims are not worshippers of my God. They are the enemies of God, and the 7th head of the Satanic beast of the Revelation, who trampled Jerusalem underfoot for 1260 years as prophesied. Now their time is up, but they want to rule Jerusalem again, and are hell bent on staring the Battle of Ar Mageddon. Islam has to be defeated, and then there will be peace for a thousand years.


 Pastor Jones needs to have another Quran burning to protest the genocide that Muslims are carrying out on Christians in Nigeria. 

Flag smcisaac June 22, 2012 6:08 PM EDT

Wow.  Just wow. 


I think there's a "mis" missing from your stage name.

Flag smcisaac June 22, 2012 6:13 PM EDT

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."  Philippians 4:8

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer June 22, 2012 11:11 PM EDT

I'm sorry if I missed something, but:


Yes, I know that Terry Jones was burning a Quran to protest the coming death sentence to a Christian in Iran. Yes, I see that burning a Quran in Florida rather than Iran serves to raise awareness of what is going on...


But since when does Iran give a flying fig what pastors in the US think? Since when do they care what anyone else thinks? Protesting or raising awareness of something does no good if the targets of said protest ignore it or protest back.


I also might have missed this but...I see that burning ink and paper shouldn't offend anyone, but it's not the *materials* so much as what the materials *represent*...


I know I'm coming at this late but I've been busy.

Flag TRUECHRISTIAN June 30, 2012 10:18 AM EDT

 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:11PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran.




Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Even so, he chose to do it in a way that also expressed contempt for the whole religion and its 1 1/2 billion followers, not only the few whom you say he intended to insult. 



I disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for the WHOLE religion. 


I also disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for ALL of the 1.7 billion Muslims. 


Where we disagree is on the issue of "intent". 


Pastor Terry clearly expressed the reason for his burning the Quran.  


You apparently do not believe him.   


Was it the "intent" of the Muslims in Iran to express contempt for the WHOLE Christian religion and ALL 2.5 billion Christians?  


I do not know the reason, the intent of the Muslims in Iran for passing the death sentence.   


 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Anyway, how much insult and hatred can one express and still be in the right, rather than in the wrong?



It would depend on the individual situations.  


If I understand you correctly, you think it NEVER wrong to insult or express contempt towards anyone for any reason. 


I also think it depends on what you expressing hatred towards. 


Love the sinner HATE the sin. 


 www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=vipers...


by: Book of the Bible |  Most relevant search result



  • Matthew 3:7 NIV


    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?


  • Romans 3:13 NIV


    "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."



It is clear to me that Jesus was insulting many of the Pharisees and Sadducees.  It is clear to me that he was not insulting or expressing contempt for the Judiac religion or ALL Jews or even ALL Pharisees and Saducees.  


He clearly gave the reasons what he was expressing hatred for, which was that because


 ""Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips.""


I think we would both agree that Jesus did not say this out of HATRED for those Pharisees and Saducess but out of LOVE.


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Is there a difference between rightly giving offense and wrongly giving offense, between right hatred and wrong hatred?



Yes, there is a difference.  It is right to give offense for what people DO, if it is wrong, it is wrong to give offense towards THE PEOPLE themselves. 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


 Is it ever right to behave in a way that can resonably be expected to provoke hateful feelings in others?



The problem is with what is "reasonable".   If I was Jewish, it could be "resonable" for me to "reason" that what Jesus said about the Pharisees and Saducees was meant to provoke hatred and contempt for the Judiac religion and ALL Jews. 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


What about this incident, which took place just last week?  Were these self-described "Bible Believers" acting rightly, or wrongly? 



It is clear and reasonable, to me, in this incident and situations that the "intent" of those Christians was to express hatred and contempt for the religion of Islam. 


""Islam is a religion of blood and murder" and "Muhammad (Islam's prophet) is a ... liar, false prophet, murderer, child molesting pervert." 


Wether or not Muslims are going to "burn in hell" because they are Muslims  and not Christians is....less clear.  There are Christians who do believe-think that ALL who are not Christians will burn in hell. 


What is clear to me is that ONLY GOD KNOWS. 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.  And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."  I John 4:20-21




While Jesus did not explicting state to "love the sinner"  and "hate the sin" most if not all do think-believe that is "resonable".  I am sure that you will agree with me that they are TRUECHRISTIAN that these "missionaries" are FALSECHRISTIAN.


It would be reasonable that those Muslims would be offended and insulted by what those "missionaries" did. 


It would all be "reasonable" that ALL 1.7 billion Muslims on the planet would also be offended and insulted, if they all heard about it.


It would be reasonable that if those Muslims understood the TRUECHRISTIAN doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that they MIGHT NOT be insulted and offended.


"Other missionaries  (TRUECHRISTIAN?)at the festival were less confrontational(offensive-insulting?), handing out fliers telling Muslims to convert and handing out free Christian books.


One(TRUECHISTIAN?) wore a T-shirt that read ''I (heart symbol) Muslims'' while handing out fliers that urged Muslims to ''accept the Lord Jesus Christ.''


What is clear to me is that there was no violence or threats of violence either by these FALSECHRISTIAN(?) or by the TRUEMUSLIMS.


What is clear and resonable to me is that IF ALL 1.7 billion Muslims hear about this incident that SOME FALSEMUSLIMS(?)"  "might" be so offended and insulted that they would commit violence against Christians who had nothing to do with this "incident-situation".  


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:57PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Muslims are not worshippers of my God. They are the enemies of God, and the 7th head of the Satanic beast of the Revelation, who trampled Jerusalem underfoot for 1260 years as prophesied. Now their time is up, but they want to rule Jerusalem again, and are hell bent on staring the Battle of Ar Mageddon. Islam has to be defeated, and then there will be peace for a thousand years.



smcisaac


I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you would disagree with "theinterpreter" and that he disagrees with you. 


I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you disagree that his interpretation of the Bible is a FALSEINTERPRETATION(?) and it is reasonable that he is  a FALSECHRISTIAN. 


I think that all three would agree that Muslims who hear about his "interpretation" wether it is "true" or "false" would be offended and insulted by his "interpretation". 


 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:57PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Pastor Jones needs to have another Quran burning to protest the genocide that Muslims are carrying out on Christians in Nigeria.



Unlike the protest by Pastor Jones, I think that more people are aware of the Muslims who are carrying out genocide, against Christians in Nighera.  


If I were an American-Muslim(TRUEMUSLIM ?) I would dissagree that those Muslims(FALSEMUSLIMS ?)in Nigeria interpretating the Quran truly.  




 




Flag smcisaac June 30, 2012 1:28 PM EDT

Jun 30, 2012 -- 10:18AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:11PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran.




Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Even so, he chose to do it in a way that also expressed contempt for the whole religion and its 1 1/2 billion followers, not only the few whom you say he intended to insult. 



I disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for the WHOLE religion. 


I also disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for ALL of the 1.7 billion Muslims. 


Where we disagree is on the issue of "intent".




At the very minimum, it shows a contemptuous disregard and disrespect for them.  Whether it was intentional or just grossly reckless is almost beside the point.


Do you remember how deeply offended and insulted many Christians were at the unorthodox, irreverent portrayal of Jesus in the Matin Scorcese film, "The Last Temptation of Christ"?  Or the death threats that artist Andres Serrano received when he displayed his work, "Piss Christ", a photo of a crucifix in a jar of urine?  It wasn't Scorcese's or Serrano's primary intent to offend all Christianity or all Christians, but it was entirely foreseeable that their actions would be widely seen as disrespectful anyway.


Burning the Qur'an is even more offensive to Muslims than sacrilegious representations of Jesus are to Christians.  That's because Christians recognize representations of Jesus as exactly that -- mere representations, not the real thing.  In contrast, Muslims believe (even though Christians disagree) that the words of the Qur'an are genuine divine utterances received directly from God.  To every faithful Muslim, doing violence to the Qur'an is to stand in open, direct rebellion against God Himself and therefore to stand in allegiance to (or at least in a state of evil confusion caused by) Satan.


Which is something the pridefully self-ordained Jones would have appreciated if he weren't so contemptuous and prejudiced toward all Muslims that he willfully refused to consider it before he lit his match.  His actions overtly demonstrated his genuine contempt for them.   Whether he demonstrated his contempt intentionally or only inadvertently boils down to a question of whether he was acting more out of informed hostility or ignorant hostility.  Either way, though, his hostility and contempt are (IMHO) the antithesis of how truly faithful Christians are called to behave. Therefore, even by Christian rather than Muslim standards, his actions truly do reflect evil confusion caused by Satan -- who often hides his presence behind a screen of seduction and deception, but whose fruit is always recognizable by its bitterness. Christians can disagree with Muslims on points of doctrine, even the most foundational ones, without letting disagreement dissolve into hatred.


This, and not my own scorn or desire to offend, is why I have used words like "antichrist" in this conversation.

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