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Switch to Forum Live View Teen Girl Exorcism Squad
6 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 3:05PM #11
Servetus
Posts: 81

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:37PM, smcisaac wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:29PM, Servetus wrote:


But I agree about what The Screwtape Letters had to say about the demons' power being strongest when their existence is not believed in.  For my part, the demons would choke me best by being invisible and impalpable. 




Apparently, the only demon that this particular minister doesn't believe in is the one who is making his eyes see other demons hiding behind every lamppost and tree.






Quite so.  I don't think his squad will be able to cast out that beast anytime soon. 

"The candle that is set up in us shines bright enough for all our purposes." -John Locke
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 13, 2012 - 10:16AM #12
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,267

Smc, I'm using this post as a jumping-off point, this isn't directed at you. I would really like this thread to continue to discuss this subject, but let's expand it to more than just LDS. If this pastor didn't say anything about LDS, it applies to the rest of us too. Otherwise, it really *would* belong on the boards over there.  I can think of several things wrong with what this pastor is doing that have nothing at all to do with any particular denomination. 


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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:42AM #13
Theo
Posts: 4,716

I remember back in the 1970s and early 80s, there was a deliverance ministry movement that blew through the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements. Lots of Churches and ministers sided with the opinion that demon oppression and possession was far more common than most religious people believed was possible. Thankfully, I was never part of this kind of thing, but a Church I once attended got really deep into the whole "deliver us from evil" theme.  


It was believed that all Satan needs in order to invade a person's inner being, is for them to sin and not repent in a timely manner. Allowing a place of darkness in one's heart is like screaming out into the spiritual void, saying... "Ya all come by and visit with me any time - door's already open." Moreover, this was true of both Christians and sinners... anyone who commits sin can be demonized, (i.e. oppressed or possessed) Satan will exploit our weaknesses to destroy our lives.


Other Christians took a different side of this issue... and they believe that demon possession is rare, and only happens when someone overtly invites the devil or demons into their hearts - and then, only if there is a demon willing to take possession of the poor deluded soul. I remember listening to a Radio preacher by the name of R.W. Shambock, who had a rather emotive and humorous way of describing our spiritual reality. He said that for the Christian, by the time the devil wades through the blood of Christ to take possession of your heart - he'd be calling you "brother." In other words, "Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world."


Personally I do not believe in the deliverance ministry approach to casting out demons. In Sacramental Churches, we renounce Satan and all his ways, and we renounce the sin and evil we have done, and we ask God to forgive us for Christ's sake. This is frankly all we need to do to keep ourselves undefiled by the workers of darkness... and the reason is simple - Christ already did everything else. He defeated the devil by the Cross, and darkness thereby lost its claim to humanity. Jesus is the Savior and redeemer of all men - especially those who believe. Mankind no longer belongs to the devil... Christ redeemed us all to God. So all we have to do as individuals is believe in Christ, and then we have direct access to salvation and spiritual freedom and deliverance from evil.


The devil would have us believe - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave - but the spiritual reality is - the devil got his teeth pulled on Calvary and no longer has legitimate claims on anyone. Christ redeemed us to God, and therefore anyone who believes in Him, has been set free from their sins and any evil that would seek their harm or ruin. All we have to do is claim that as our truth and walk in it - the victory belongs to us through faith in Christ.  


I think the biggest error of those in the deliverance ministry, is they spend far too much time focused upon the devil and his powers. Scripture tells us to keep looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The devil and his bag of tricks should not be our focus - worshipping the Living God and His Son is where we should focus our attention.


~ Theophilus

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 6:11PM #14
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,267

Apr 14, 2012 -- 2:42AM, Theo wrote:


I remember back in the 1970s and early 80s, there was a deliverance ministry movement that blew through the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements. Lots of Churches and ministers sided with the opinion that demon oppression and possession was far more common than most religious people believed was possible. Thankfully, I was never part of this kind of thing, but a Church I once attended got really deep into the whole "deliver us from evil" theme.  


It was believed that all Satan needs in order to invade a person's inner being, is for them to sin and not repent in a timely manner. Allowing a place of darkness in one's heart is like screaming out into the spiritual void, saying... "Ya all come by and visit with me any time - door's already open." Moreover, this was true of both Christians and sinners... anyone who commits sin can be demonized, (i.e. oppressed or possessed) Satan will exploit our weaknesses to destroy our lives.


Other Christians took a different side of this issue... and they believe that demon possession is rare, and only happens when someone overtly invites the devil or demons into their hearts - and then, only if there is a demon willing to take possession of the poor deluded soul. I remember listening to a Radio preacher by the name of R.W. Shambock, who had a rather emotive and humorous way of describing our spiritual reality. He said that for the Christian, by the time the devil wades through the blood of Christ to take possession of your heart - he'd be calling you "brother." In other words, "Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world."


Personally I do not believe in the deliverance ministry approach to casting out demons. In Sacramental Churches, we renounce Satan and all his ways, and we renounce the sin and evil we have done, and we ask God to forgive us for Christ's sake. This is frankly all we need to do to keep ourselves undefiled by the workers of darkness... and the reason is simple - Christ already did everything else. He defeated the devil by the Cross, and darkness thereby lost its claim to humanity. Jesus is the Savior and redeemer of all men - especially those who believe. Mankind no longer belongs to the devil... Christ redeemed us all to God. So all we have to do as individuals is believe in Christ, and then we have direct access to salvation and spiritual freedom and deliverance from evil.


The devil would have us believe - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave - but the spiritual reality is - the devil got his teeth pulled on Calvary and no longer has legitimate claims on anyone. Christ redeemed us to God, and therefore anyone who believes in Him, has been set free from their sins and any evil that would seek their harm or ruin. All we have to do is claim that as our truth and walk in it - the victory belongs to us through faith in Christ.  


I think the biggest error of those in the deliverance ministry, is they spend far too much time focused upon the devil and his powers. Scripture tells us to keep looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The devil and his bag of tricks should not be our focus - worshipping the Living God and His Son is where we should focus our attention.


~ Theophilus




I've often wondered why some people focus so much on Satan if they believe what you said in your last three paragraphs. I can't help but wonder if they think that Satan is more powerful than God is, if they think it's 'that easy' for him to 'attack' and 'take us down'.  If we believe that God is more powerful than Satan and that any claim he ever had to us was done away with at the cross (as most Christians say they do), then why give Satan so much credit? Sure, maybe he has power, but it doesn't hold a candle to God's. I'd much rather focus on that.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 7:54PM #15
Mostyn32
Posts: 2,941

Amen, amen to that, BD!


As for whether the Rev. Larson's teen exorcists have suffered child abuse, I'd say not. However, they have been brainwashed! And let's face it, it isn't going to hurt daddy's super-lucrative business to have three pretty girls de-demonizing folks, is it? It reminds me of those lovely assistants to magicians whose job it is to deflect attention away from what the magician is up to!

"God is no captious sophister, eager to trip us up whenever we say amiss, but a courteous tutor, ready to amend what, in our weakness or our ignorance, we say ill, and to make the most of what we say aright."  from 'A Learned Discourse on Justification', a sermon by Richard Hooker (1554-1600).
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 10:42PM #16
smcisaac
Posts: 8,652

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

"To substitute Scripture for the self-revealing Spirit is to put the dead letter in the place of the living Word." Sebastian Franck
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 1:04PM #17
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,267

Apr 14, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Mostyn32 wrote:


Amen, amen to that, BD!


As for whether the Rev. Larson's teen exorcists have suffered child abuse, I'd say not. However, they have been brainwashed! And let's face it, it isn't going to hurt daddy's super-lucrative business to have three pretty girls de-demonizing folks, is it? It reminds me of those lovely assistants to magicians whose job it is to deflect attention away from what the magician is up to!




Yes, I would say 'brainwashed' more than 'abused', especially since they are essentially adults. I'm not sure when he started his 'ministry', though.


Have Larson and his 'team' ever been investigated or arrested for fraud? Because that's exactly what it is. They might not see it that way and the authorities might be afraid to try to prosecute because it will look like they're impinging on 'religious freedom', but I see nothing Christian in taking people's money for a 'service' that, chances are, they really don't need. You know, the whole 'money changers in the temple' thing.


Have any of the people who have been 'exorcised' been healed long-term, or was it only short-term? Because that's IMO what will happen if what the person really has is a medical condition...short-term healing, if even that!



(silly tangent)
...and why do we never see female magicians with male 'lovely assistants'? We could use some eye candy too! :)

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 2:28PM #18
SeraphimR
Posts: 12,687

Are people using "brainwashed" to mean being taught something you all don't believe in?


If that is the case, I could accuse you all of being brainwashed.  But what would  be the point of that?


I am rather suspicious of all this talk of child abuse and brainwashing.  You are setting up the conditions necessary for the State to seize the children of unpopular parents.  But maybe you are OK with that.

“So long as there is squalor in the world, those obsessed with social justice feel obliged not only to live in it themselves but also to spread it evenly.”

http://takimag.com/article/the_ugly_truth_theodore_dalrymple
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 4:23PM #19
Theo
Posts: 4,716

I am rather suspicious of all this talk of child abuse and brainwashing.  You are setting up the conditions necessary for the State to seize the children of unpopular parents.  But maybe you are OK with that.


I agree. As a parent I was very alarmed at times over the States interest in my children, especially through the Public Schools and Child Protective Services. Admittedly I am not as concerned about this issue now that my kids are adults, even so it should be an area where Christian parents hold the State to close scrutiny. Washington  State, where I live, views the children who live in the State as it's No. 1 natural resource. I take exception to that... my kids belonged to me and my wife, not to the State. So I do not see the State as owning me or my kids, or granting me permission to raise my children as the State sees fit - but the State does think its owns me and my kids.


Sadly, the people who are the exceptions (abusers, weirdos and religious nuts) are the ones who form the basis the State uses to develop the rules they use to govern the rest of us. Even so, having looked over Bob Larson's Websites, as well as the sits of those who oppose him, I would have to say that - yes, I think his daughters are being used by their father, to carry out his Elmer Gantry style religious road-show. Sadly, however, I believe the State needs to err on the side of toleration, even of parents like Bob Larson - because the kids do not belong to the State... the Government is supposed to be for the people and by the people - not for itself with the people as its assets.


~ THeophilus

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 10:22AM #20
Mostyn32
Posts: 2,941

Apr 15, 2012 -- 2:28PM, SeraphimR wrote:


Are people using "brainwashed" to mean being taught something you all don't believe in?


If that is the case, I could accuse you all of being brainwashed.  But what would  be the point of that?


I am rather suspicious of all this talk of child abuse and brainwashing.  You are setting up the conditions necessary for the State to seize the children of unpopular parents.  But maybe you are OK with that.




 


Seraphim, I've come to the conclusion that if we were discussing the joy of living with dogs, you would immediately weigh in with the view that cats make better companions than dogs, not because you have any great love for cats, but merely to state an opposite view!


Nobody is suggesting that the state "seize" the Larson girls, just that what they've been taught and obviously blindly believe is mediaeval. As for the rest of us being brainwashed, I don't know about you but I have examined my beliefs thoroughly. Brainwashed people don't do that. I'd also venture to say that most of the B'net posters have spent time mulling over the veracity of their beliefs. 

"God is no captious sophister, eager to trip us up whenever we say amiss, but a courteous tutor, ready to amend what, in our weakness or our ignorance, we say ill, and to make the most of what we say aright."  from 'A Learned Discourse on Justification', a sermon by Richard Hooker (1554-1600).
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