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Switch to Forum Live View Teen Girl Exorcism Squad
2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 11:39AM #1
Ironhold
Posts: 11,527
I *wish* I was making this up.

The 17-year-old daughter of infamous minister Rev. Bob Larson has rounded up a possee consisting of another 17-year-old and a 20-year-old in order to go around doing exorcisms under Larson's supervision. Larson, who charges for the service, literally believes that as much as 50% of the world's population is dealing with demon possession.

And so he's putting his daughter and her two friends on the front line in order to rake it in.

Can we say "child abuse"?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 1:42PM #2
smcisaac
Posts: 7,953

That could be the title of a really bad B movie.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 10, 2012 - 9:16PM #3
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,161

Or thisSmile


Sorry, Ironhold, I don't mean to make light of it...I don't know if I'd say 'child abuse', but I *definitely* feel sorry for the kids and for the people who paid for this 'service'.


(somewhat of a tangent)


It drives me nuts sometimes how some people see a demon or spirit behind every curtain. Sure, Satan likes to screw with people and I definitely believe such things can exist, but the vast majority of things I've heard attributed to 'demons' are medical or psychological issues. It's like the Screwtape Letters-demons can succeed by either convincing people they don't exist at all or by convincing people they are *everywhere*...so they'll be too busy fighting the 'spirit of depression', etc to notice things *really* hitting the fan.


That, and 'the devil made me do it' is IMO just a lame excuse for bad behavior. It was lame when I used it at age seven to explain why I ruined my sister's favorite t-shirt and it's lame when some TV preacher uses it to explain why he stepped out on his marriage.

More where that came from...

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 12:38AM #4
Ironhold
Posts: 11,527

Apr 10, 2012 -- 9:16PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


Or this

Sorry, Ironhold, I don't mean to make light of it...I don't know if I'd say 'child abuse', but I *definitely* feel sorry for the kids and for the people who paid for this 'service'.




What gets me is that one of the reasons people use as to why the LDS faith is "false" is because we give limited priesthood authority to those 12 - 17 (so that they can help the adults run the congregation) and confer full authority on a person who's 18+ (we use a lay ministry, and so the ministerial pool is literally all the adult membership); the basis is that everyone is supposedly too young to know what they're doing, let alone be taken seriously.


And yet here we have Rev. Larson pimping his underage daughter and her two friends out.



Can we say "hypocrisy" here?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 10:20AM #5
smcisaac
Posts: 7,953

Apr 11, 2012 -- 12:38AM, Ironhold wrote:


Can we say "hypocrisy" here?




Nope. At least not with what you've told us so far. 


You haven't offered any info at all on his own view of Mormon youth ordination.  He might think it's just dandy. 


And he is certainly not representative of all Christianity, so that line of argument is a straw man.


And the argument that Mormon youth policies  prove that Mormon beliefs are "false" is a non sequitur.  All that proves is that Mormons have confidence in their youth.  It may be well-founded or ill-founded confidence, or it may vary with the circumstances, but it says nothing about the validity of the Mormon doctrinal system overall.


And who are the "people" who offer that critique anyway?


And if your real purpose is to defend LDS youth policies, why doesn't this thread belong on a Mormon discussion board rather than this one?

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 10:47AM #6
Ironhold
Posts: 11,527

Apr 11, 2012 -- 10:20AM, smcisaac wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 12:38AM, Ironhold wrote:


Can we say "hypocrisy" here?




Nope. At least not with what you've told us so far.




12 - 13: help pass the sacrament, serve as messengers, go with their parents on visitation


14 - 15: help prepare the sacrament, make sure the younger kids are doing their stuff


16 - 17: help bless the sacrament, help ensure the physical maintenance of the building; may perform baptisms if they receive permission to do so, but usually for younger siblings or friends.



It just kinda bugs me how "pimping out three young women to do something potentially dangerous to all involved" is regarded as kosher but "passing the sacrament so that parents can focus on tending to their younger children" is regarded as ignorance.


And yes, I've had people - even here on BNet - tell me the latter.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 11:07AM #7
smcisaac
Posts: 7,953

You're missing the point. 


Youth can assist in Mormon worship.  Some weirdo Christian minister sees demons everywhere and sends his daughter out to fight them. Some other people disagree with Mormon attitudes toward youth and use that as an excuse to criticize unrelated points of Mormon doctrine. Those three things have nothing to do with each other, and also nothing to do with more orthodox Christianity. 


You are trying to find connections where they don't exist.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 11:12AM #8
smcisaac
Posts: 7,953

Since this is a Christian debate board, let's reframe the questions you have raised.


Are this demon-fighting minister and his daughter typical of all Christianity?  My answer is no.


Would there be any reason in mainstream Christian tradition to prevent adolescents from assisting in worship, or in extenuating circumstances from administering sacraments?  I'm a little less sure of the answer there, at least across the entire spectrum of Christian practice, but I think for a large segment of Christianity it would also be no.  However, some Christians, particularly in the Anabaptist and Baptist traditions, defer baptism until adulthood and therefore would have a dissenting view.


Is it possible to come up with a meaningful theological argument for limiting youth participation in church life before adulthood?  Sure.  For example, it's pretty well known that that's what the Amish (an Anabaptist sect) do.  But it's a sectarian difference, not a defining, bedrock Christian principle.


Does the LDS Church have its own unique bundle of sectarian differences that distinguish it from both a mainstream Christian consensus and every other differentiated Christian sect?  You bet it does, and it is pretty insistent on maintaining them.


Is it hypocritical for outsiders to recognize that unique differences distinguish their own sectarian understanding of Christian faith from the sectarian understanding of the LDS Church?  I would say no, it's no more hypocritical than, say, a Presbyterian saying that Calvin was right and Arminius was wrong, so Presbyterians are right and Methodists are wrong.  It's not hypocrisy, it's merely an acknowledgement of differences in understanding.  (And that has nothing whatsoever to do with one eccentric, paranoid, counterphobic demon-hunter and his unfortunate daughter.)


Is adult or "believer's" baptism as practiced by some Christian sects a significant point of disagreement with the Mormon practice of youth participation?  Yes, it is. 


Do zealous Christian advocates of believer's baptism disagree only with Mormons, or do they also disagree just as strenuously with other Christian sects that afford earlier sacraments and more responsibilities to their youth?  They also disagree with other Christian sects.


Is it realistic for a Mormon to hear criticism of some of LDS's sectarian particularities from a Christian of another particular sect or tradition, and assume that all other Christians also share the same opinion?  No, it is not -- for the same reason that it would not be realistic for a Methodist to hear criticism of Arminianism from a Presbyterian and assume that all other Christians are also Calvinists.


Are there Christians who believe that their own personal beliefs constitute the only true expression of Christianity, and that everyone else who considers him- or herself "Christian" is not merely in disagreement, but in dangerous and sinful error, to the extent that their beliefs differ?  Sure, there are tons of those people.  But would it be wise therefore to assume that anyone who thinks he or she speaks for "true Christianity" in that way ipso facto also speaks broadly for all Christians?  Of course not.  A lot of the people who think they speak for true Christianity, and who are most vocal about doing so, don't even agree with one another.  (And that may have everything to do with one eccentric, paranoid, counterphobic demon-hunter and his unfortunate daughter.)

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:29PM #9
Servetus
Posts: 81

Apr 10, 2012 -- 9:16PM, Beautiful_Dreamer wrote:


Or thisSmile


Sorry, Ironhold, I don't mean to make light of it...I don't know if I'd say 'child abuse', but I *definitely* feel sorry for the kids and for the people who paid for this 'service'.


(somewhat of a tangent)


It drives me nuts sometimes how some people see a demon or spirit behind every curtain. Sure, Satan likes to screw with people and I definitely believe such things can exist, but the vast majority of things I've heard attributed to 'demons' are medical or psychological issues. It's like the Screwtape Letters-demons can succeed by either convincing people they don't exist at all or by convincing people they are *everywhere*...so they'll be too busy fighting the 'spirit of depression', etc to notice things *really* hitting the fan.


That, and 'the devil made me do it' is IMO just a lame excuse for bad behavior. It was lame when I used it at age seven to explain why I ruined my sister's favorite t-shirt and it's lame when some TV preacher uses it to explain why he stepped out on his marriage.






I don't feel too sorry for these 'kids.'  Two of them won't be minors much longer and one is 20; and in any case they seem strong-willed enough (black belts in karate).  They'll milk this thing for everything it's worth, especially if they get their own reality show.  Then who knows?  Maybe they'll even be able to afford their own college educations after their "15 minutes of fame" is over.  If they turn against the Reverend and tell the story of his dark manipulation, there could be a hefty book-deal there (The "Screw-loose" Letters). 


But I agree about what The Screwtape Letters had to say about the demons' power being strongest when their existence is not believed in.  For my part, the demons would choke me best by being invisible and impalpable. 

"The candle that is set up in us shines bright enough for all our purposes." -John Locke
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 1:37PM #10
smcisaac
Posts: 7,953

Apr 11, 2012 -- 1:29PM, Servetus wrote:


But I agree about what The Screwtape Letters had to say about the demons' power being strongest when their existence is not believed in.  For my part, the demons would choke me best by being invisible and impalpable. 




Apparently, the only demon that this particular minister doesn't believe in is the one who is making his eyes see other demons hiding behind every lamppost and tree.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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