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Switch to Forum Live View Where Is Whitney Houston Now?
3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 11:20AM #11
TemplarS
Posts: 6,780

While a person is alive, there are things we can do for the state of their soul.


After they are dead it does no good to speculate.


If you feel the need: why not simply offer a prayer that God be merciful?  And leave it in his hands?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 12:23PM #12
Webers_Home
Posts: 922

.


Feb 13, 2012 -- 11:20AM, TemplarS wrote:

If you feel the need: why not simply offer a prayer that God be merciful?


The system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere discourages prayers for the dead; and the reason for that is as simple as it is practical. If my friend went to hell, there is of course no hope of mercy; ergo: any prayer offered for him in that state would just result in a ping. And if he went to heaven, then he doesn't need prayer anyway. In point of fact, by all rights, my friend, if he went to heaven, ought to be praying for yours truly since the prayers of someone already in heaven are far more likely to be heard than mine.


FYI : the system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere rejects the theory of a purgatory.


Cliff
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 1:13PM #13
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

CLIFF:...some questions... to be answered by:


..."The system of beliefs and practices to which (Cliff) adheres..."


Definition: "Believer" = true spiritual Christ-Follower


1. Where do believers go at the instant of their death here? ASSUME 3 PARTS....Body? Soul? Spirit?


2. Same-o for UNbeleievers?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 3:35PM #14
hamerhas
Posts: 1,084

Feb 13, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Webers_Home wrote:


.


Feb 13, 2012 -- 11:20AM, TemplarS wrote:

If you feel the need: why not simply offer a prayer that God be merciful?


The system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere discourages prayers for the dead; and the reason for that is as simple as it is practical. If my friend went to hell, there is of course no hope of mercy; ergo: any prayer offered for him in that state would just result in a ping. And if he went to heaven, then he doesn't need prayer anyway. In point of fact, by all rights, my friend, if he went to heaven, ought to be praying for yours truly since the prayers of someone already in heaven are far more likely to be heard than mine.


FYI : the system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere rejects the theory of a purgatory.


Cliff
/




The one question from which no person can escape and we all must answer is, just who is


Jesus ?


Jesus demands that we all must answer who He is :


 


 "But whom say ye that I am?"


    ( Matthew 16:15)


 


We cannot escape answering.


Pilate , and his wife , troubled and desperate at His very presence tried frantically not to answer


the question of who Jesus is  and failed miserably:


 


            " Have nothing to do with that just man , for I have suffered many thing this day in a dream because of him. "  ( Matthew 27:19)


          "...he took water  , and washed his hands before the multitude , saying I am innocent.."


                                 ( Matthew 27:24 )


 


The centurion at the foot of the cross had to decide who Jesus is:


 


              "  Truly this was the Son of God. "


                   ( Matthew 27:54 )


 


 While not 100% certain ,  the best indicator you can have of  " where your friend is " would


be in the  decision we all know he made concerning who is Jesus , and more importantly what


impact on his life did his decision have? 


 


 


 


                        

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 3:55PM #15
Webers_Home
Posts: 922

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Feb 13, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

ASSUME 3 PARTS....Body? Soul? Spirit?


First I'm going to have to define each one of those parts.


The "body" is one's physical vehicle.


The "soul" is one's essential nature. For example: humans have human nature, coyotes have coyote nature, eagles have eagle nature, meerkats have meerkat nature, and God has divine nature.


The "spirit" is that which gives life to the soul and the body.


All three of those elements are divisible.


†. Heb 4:12 . . For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit


†. 1Thss 5:23 . . I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


†. Jas 2:26 . . the body without the spirit is dead



Feb 13, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

Where do believers go at the instant of their death here? Same-o for UNbeleievers?


The body of course stays here to decompose as per Gen 3:19 but the soul and spirit go elsewhere.  The soul and spirit used to go to one of the two locations depicted at Luke 16:19-31. Whether that's still the way it is I can't say with any confidence.


BTW: the rich man at Luke 16:19-31 has a tongue and is able to experience thirst; which suggests to me that souls and spirits in the afterlife are housed in some sort of humanistic body rather than drifting around as disconnected elements of human existence.


Cliff
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2012 - 4:08PM #16
TemplarS
Posts: 6,780

Feb 13, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Webers_Home wrote:


.


Feb 13, 2012 -- 11:20AM, TemplarS wrote:

If you feel the need: why not simply offer a prayer that God be merciful?


The system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere discourages prayers for the dead; and the reason for that is as simple as it is practical. If my friend went to hell, there is of course no hope of mercy; ergo: any prayer offered for him in that state would just result in a ping. And if he went to heaven, then he doesn't need prayer anyway. In point of fact, by all rights, my friend, if he went to heaven, ought to be praying for yours truly since the prayers of someone already in heaven are far more likely to be heard than mine.


FYI : the system of beliefs and practices to which I adhere rejects the theory of a purgatory.


Cliff
/




Why put limits on God's mercy?  


If prayer in general is capable of influencing God to do something he would not do otherwise (which may be worth a separate discussion) I see no reason why prayers for the souls of the dead would be any different from any other type of intercessory prayers.  


I would expect them, in fact, to be more effective.  Many other common prayers seem to be limited by facts relating to the material world we live in; praying for God to keep someone safe on an airplane flight is not notably effective in cases where the mechanic forgot to put the right bolt in the right hole. 


 


 

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 1:12AM #17
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,512

Feb 13, 2012 -- 3:35PM, hamerhas wrote:


"But whom say ye that I am?"


    ( Matthew 16:15)


 



That is:


"But who do you say I am?"


the verb "to be" takes a predicate nominative, not an accusative.


-------------


As far as prayers for the dead are concerned, we can still appeal to God's mercy before the final judgement, surely.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 8:47AM #18
Webers_Home
Posts: 922

.

Feb 14, 2012 -- 1:12AM, SeraphimR wrote:

As far as prayers for the dead are concerned, we can still appeal to God's mercy before the final judgement, surely.


Not so if you're one of the world's 1,142,604,000 Roman Catholics.


CCC. 393 . .There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.


Nor is it so if you're one of the world's 1,523,212,150 Muslims and/or one of the world's 483,821,000 Buddhists and/or one of the world's 935,460,000 Hindus and/or one of the word's 138,777,200 Atheists.


†. 2Cor 6:1-2 . .We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you. Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.


The white-knuckle fact is that when Yhvh's people refused to enter the promised land when ordered to; everyone under the age of twenty was sentenced to death; and when too late they realized their error, there was no going back. Yes, today is the day of salvation— now is the time; not later. It is impossible to pray people out of the Bible's hell: their fate is set in concrete and they are now objects of ridicule.


†. Prov 1:24-32 . . I called you so often, but you didn't come. I reached out to you, but you paid no attention. You ignored my advice and rejected the correction I offered. So I will laugh when you are in trouble! I will mock you when disaster overtakes you— when calamity overcomes you like a storm, when you are engulfed by trouble, and when anguish and distress overwhelm you.


. . . I will not answer when they cry for help. Even though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me. For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear The Lord. They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them. That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen.


Cliff
/

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 6:44PM #19
Basil1951
Posts: 204

I am not an expert on Whitney Houston and I certainly to do not her personally, but of the following I am certain. She is now where we will all be – experiencing a foretaste of her place in eternity after the final judgment.


She is in the presence of a God who loves her more than anyone on this earth could love her and who desires that all should live and not perish. She will receive that portion of His grace which her soul can accept. She will receive this grace as either light or as heat, for either can be the experience of being in the presence of the energies of God. And she will continue her journey to become more and more, through grace, what God is by nature.


For now ...


O God of spirits and of all flesh, You have trampled down death and have abolished the power of the devil, giving life to Your world. Give rest to the soul of Your departed servant (Name) in a place of light, in a place of repose, in a place of refreshment, where there is no pain, sorrow, and suffering. As a good and loving God, forgive every sin he (she) has committed in thought, word or deed, for there is no one who lives and is sinless. You alone are without sin. Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your word is truth.


For You are the resurrection, the life and the repose of Your departed servant (Name), Christ our God, and to You we give glory, with Your eternal Father and Your all holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.


Amen.



Basil

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2012 - 7:43PM #20
TemplarS
Posts: 6,780

Very nice, Basil

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