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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:41PM #61
57
Posts: 28,191

Romans 8:35


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


   “For your sake we face death all day long; 
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 


 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,  neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:42PM #62
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,177

57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 2:28PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:02PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Eternal life is a gift. As such it can be rejected or, even if accepted, wasted.


“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. [or: in danger of an eternal damnation] ” (Mark 3:29)


If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. (1 John 5:16)



You need to tell us just what "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit" is if you are going to use that to show how one can lose their salvation.


Can we admit that there is any difference between the Gospels, on such absolutely fundamental question? Of course not! Therefore ALL these expressions are absolutely equivalent ...


unforgivable sin = unpardonable sin = eternal sin = sin that leads to death = mortal sin


 ... and they all essentially consist in the blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit.


Now, of course we still have to establish beyond doubt what is the "blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit".


Let's look again at a safe source, the Scripture. The answer comes from the "context" and it is, respectively, for Mark and Matthew constituted by ...


Mark 3:22-30 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


Matthew 12:22-32 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


 ... whereas, for some peculiar reason, Luke's material is arranged differently, so that the natural context of Luke 12:10 (corresponding to Mark and Matthew) is found at Luke, chapter 11:


Luke 11:14-23 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


Now, if we compare Mark 3:22-30, Matthew 12:22-32 and Luke 11:14-23 it is immediately evident that (apart from the "placement" of Luke 12:10) they all speak of the same episode of Jesus casting our a demon. Let's look at it in detail in Luke's version:


Jesus and Beelzebul


14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the man who had been mute began to speak, and the crowds were amazed. 15 But some of them said, “By the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons, he casts out demons.” 16 Others, to test him, began asking for a sign from heaven. 17 But Jesus, realizing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and a divided household falls. 18 So if Satan too is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? I ask you this because you claim that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 Now if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his possessions are safe. 22 But when a stronger man attacks and conquers him, he takes away the first man’s armor on which the man relied and divides up his plunder. 23 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (Luke 11:14-23)


What is the sin of the Jesus prejudiced enemies, the Scribes and the Pharisees (and of whoever, misled by prejudice, "reasons" in bad faith like them)? The answer, by now, is straightforward: rather than admitting that Jesus was casting out the demon by the power of God's Holy Spirit, they were ready to affirm the absurdity that Jesus was casting out a demon by the power of Satan (or Beelzebul)


So, in conclusion, the Scriptures clearly support the exact opposite of what many believe:


The "unforgivable sin" is NOT, the "rejection of Jesus Christ" (and so says with crystal clarity Jesus himself), BUT the blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit, that is the refusal of recognizing God's presence at work, and the attribution of God's signs even to Satan, to Beelzebub.


This may come as a surprise to many, but it is the undeniable conclusion that we draw from the Gospels.


[57] 1 st John 5:16 has been show that certain sins can lead to physical death.   I have no problem with that.


How utterly ridiculous ... EmbarassedCool


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Forever, O LORD, Your word [dabar] stands in heaven.” (Psalm 119:89)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:50PM #63
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:50PM #64
57
Posts: 28,191

Miguel_de_serv,


Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:53PM #65
57
Posts: 28,191

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 




That post was presented to an individual that claims God is all.  All would include those items in the list above....plus many more items.  


If you believe God is the created rather than the ceator...have at it.  Christianity doesn't teach that.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 4:03PM #66
lope
Posts: 11,796

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:41PM, 57 wrote:


Romans 8:35


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


   “For your sake we face death all day long; 
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 


 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,  neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.






None of this contradicts Ezekiel when it says the righteous can turn to wickedness and if they do they will die and not live.  None of these verses say God keeps us close to Him by force and will not let us leave.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 4:13PM #67
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,177

57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, 57 wrote:

Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blasphem[y] of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.


Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


... take care ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Forever, O LORD, Your word [dabar] stands in heaven.” (Psalm 119:89)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 4:37PM #68
57
Posts: 28,191

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, 57 wrote:

Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blasphem[y] of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.


Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


... take care ...


MdS




Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 4:49PM #69
allthegoodnamesweretaken
Posts: 11,634

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:53PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 




That post was presented to an individual that claims God is all.  All would include those items in the list above....plus many more items.  


If you believe God is the created rather than the ceator...have at it.  Christianity doesn't teach that.





It is possible that I have misunderstood a part of your post, but I hardly think that I am the only one here. 


I know that Gilly is a polytheist. As such I don't see how you reconcile that with the idea that she is representing a monotheistic pantheist point of view. 


As it is though, I don't believe that your god is either the "creator" or that he is "uncreated".  This is, after all, discuss Christianity. 

Yesterday, in America, 100 million gun owners did nothing.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 6:05PM #70
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

In fact, Gilly claims to have had encounters with at least three different deities (including being released by the one we worship)

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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