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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 12:10PM #51
lope
Posts: 10,673

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:03PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 11:46AM, lope wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 5:27PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 3:16PM, lope wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 2:32PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 2:19PM, lope wrote:



It would not be part of the no one else.  It is only part of the no one if you don't believe God allows us to be able to love or not love and makes us do what ever God wants.  I don't believe in a God that imprisons us --forces us to stay with Him.  Our value to God is in our willing ness to be His child.  Otherwise we have no value to Him.




It would help your case if you some scripture to back up your opinion.   But as I said, the bible says no one, you included. 


The only reason why you would want to leave God and His great salvation would be if you have been deceived.  The one that would have decieved you then would have snatched you out of Gods hand...which the bible tells us is impossible. 





But the bible does not tell us it is impossible for the righteous to turn to wickedness.  In fact it says it is possible.  Ezekiel 18.




Every time you sin you turn to wickedness. 


In other words...according to your theology...you've already lost yoursalvation.





No, not all sin is unto death.  First John Five




believers can sin to the point that physical death is the judgement. 





Physical death is not the judgment.  The righteous die physically.  Spritual death is the judgment and only the wicked die spiritually.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 12:26PM #52
57
Posts: 22,023

Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 12:47PM #53
lope
Posts: 10,673

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:26PM, 57 wrote:


Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  





A person cannot be taken from God.  They can however chose to leave.  The teaching in Ezekiel 18 is not unclear.  It contradicts your misinterpretation of the hands of God verse.   Salvation and eternal life is the same thing.  While I agree we are saved by grace and cannot earn eternal life, I do not agree obediance to God is unconnected to our receiving eternal Life.  Jesus clearlly indicated a connection between our showing love for others and eternal life, both in Matt 25:31 and following and in the parable of the Good Samaritan and elsewhere, Luke 13:3 for example.  Ezekiel also shows a connection when he says the righteous will live and not die.  I agree we all do not have the ability to maintain our spiritual existence.  We all do have the ability to lose our spiritual existence.  Going back to the very clear teaching of Ezekiel 18--we kill our own soul with our own sin.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 12:55PM #54
57
Posts: 22,023

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:47PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:26PM, 57 wrote:


Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  





A person cannot be taken from God.  They can however chose to leave. 


Show me a  verse that states this.  


The teaching in Ezekiel 18 is not unclear.  It contradicts your misinterpretation of the hands of God verse.   Salvation and eternal life is the same thing.  While I agree we are saved by grace and cannot earn eternal life, I do not agree obediance to God is unconnected to our receiving eternal Life.  Jesus clearlly indicated a connection between our showing love for others and eternal life, both in Matt 25:31 and following and in the parable of the Good Samaritan


I've already demonstrated that you haven't loved the Lord God with ALL of your heart.


and elsewhere, Luke 13:3 for example.  Ezekiel also shows a connection when he says the righteous will live and not die.  I agree we all do not have the ability to maintain our spiritual existence.  We all do have the ability to lose our spiritual existence. 


As I said, if that be the case then you have already lost it. 


Going back to the very clear teaching of Ezekiel 18--we kill our own soul with our own sin.





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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 1:02PM #55
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:

John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?


Eternal life is a gift. As such it can be rejected or, even if accepted, wasted.


“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. [or: in danger of an eternal damnation] ” (Mark 3:29)


If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. (1 John 5:16)


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 1:38PM #56
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492
I think we have eternal life upon salvation. John 3:16. What we do with that gift is a different matter. I think about what Jesus said before he left, about how He was going to His Father's house to prepare a place for us, and how He would return for us. Jesus is Life, life we have from salvation, it does not begin when we die. We choose moment by moment how to respond to the Holy Spirit living in us, and wnen we heed what the Spirit says to us we experience God's presence and peace and Blessings more fully. When we do not heed the Spirit, we simply miss out on God' Blessings He wants us to be a part of and God's work He wants us to be a part of. And I believe there are consequences to our choices, in our earthly lives and what awaits us in Heaven. I expect we wil not understand all of this fully until we get to Heaven. Sherri
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 2:28PM #57
57
Posts: 22,023

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:02PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:

John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?


Eternal life is a gift. As such it can be rejected or, even if accepted, wasted.


“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. [or: in danger of an eternal damnation] ” (Mark 3:29)


If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. (1 John 5:16)


MdS




You need to tell us just what blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is if you are going to use that to show how one can lose their salvation.  


1 st John 5:16 has been show that certain sins can lead to physical death.   I have no problem with that. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:03PM #58
lope
Posts: 10,673

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:55PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:47PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:26PM, 57 wrote:


Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  





A person cannot be taken from God.  They can however chose to leave. 


Show me a  verse that states this.  


The teaching in Ezekiel 18 is not unclear.  It contradicts your misinterpretation of the hands of God verse.   Salvation and eternal life is the same thing.  While I agree we are saved by grace and cannot earn eternal life, I do not agree obediance to God is unconnected to our receiving eternal Life.  Jesus clearlly indicated a connection between our showing love for others and eternal life, both in Matt 25:31 and following and in the parable of the Good Samaritan


I've already demonstrated that you haven't loved the Lord God with ALL of your heart.


and elsewhere, Luke 13:3 for example.  Ezekiel also shows a connection when he says the righteous will live and not die.  I agree we all do not have the ability to maintain our spiritual existence.  We all do have the ability to lose our spiritual existence. 


As I said, if that be the case then you have already lost it. 


Going back to the very clear teaching of Ezekiel 18--we kill our own soul with our own sin.









Not very caplable of dealing with the issues presented are you?

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:11PM #59
57
Posts: 22,023

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:03PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:55PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:47PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:26PM, 57 wrote:


Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  





A person cannot be taken from God.  They can however chose to leave. 


Show me a  verse that states this.  


The teaching in Ezekiel 18 is not unclear.  It contradicts your misinterpretation of the hands of God verse.   Salvation and eternal life is the same thing.  While I agree we are saved by grace and cannot earn eternal life, I do not agree obediance to God is unconnected to our receiving eternal Life.  Jesus clearlly indicated a connection between our showing love for others and eternal life, both in Matt 25:31 and following and in the parable of the Good Samaritan


I've already demonstrated that you haven't loved the Lord God with ALL of your heart.


and elsewhere, Luke 13:3 for example.  Ezekiel also shows a connection when he says the righteous will live and not die.  I agree we all do not have the ability to maintain our spiritual existence.  We all do have the ability to lose our spiritual existence. 


As I said, if that be the case then you have already lost it. 


Going back to the very clear teaching of Ezekiel 18--we kill our own soul with our own sin.









Not very caplable of dealing with the issues presented are you?




I've already dealt with it.   The ball has been stuck in your court for a while. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 3:37PM #60
lope
Posts: 10,673

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:11PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:03PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:55PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:47PM, lope wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:26PM, 57 wrote:


Lope, so far you have failed to show me how a saved person can be taken from the hands of God. 


You've reached back to an unclear verse from the OT...and tried to use it to contradict the hands of God verse. 


Usually in the bible when salvation is mentioned so is eternal life.  If you are saved...you have eternal life.   The bible doesn't say you MAY have eternal life. 


At one time I use to believe you could lose your salvation.  


Besides the very clear verse I presented to you I also realized you are saved by faith and grace and not of works .... your continued salvation is also not based upon what you do.  If our continued salvation is based upon what we do rather than the mercy and grace of God..then each and every person has lost their salvation.  Each and every person does not have the ability to mantain their salvation.  





A person cannot be taken from God.  They can however chose to leave. 


Show me a  verse that states this.  


The teaching in Ezekiel 18 is not unclear.  It contradicts your misinterpretation of the hands of God verse.   Salvation and eternal life is the same thing.  While I agree we are saved by grace and cannot earn eternal life, I do not agree obediance to God is unconnected to our receiving eternal Life.  Jesus clearlly indicated a connection between our showing love for others and eternal life, both in Matt 25:31 and following and in the parable of the Good Samaritan


I've already demonstrated that you haven't loved the Lord God with ALL of your heart.


and elsewhere, Luke 13:3 for example.  Ezekiel also shows a connection when he says the righteous will live and not die.  I agree we all do not have the ability to maintain our spiritual existence.  We all do have the ability to lose our spiritual existence. 


As I said, if that be the case then you have already lost it. 


Going back to the very clear teaching of Ezekiel 18--we kill our own soul with our own sin.









Not very caplable of dealing with the issues presented are you?




I've already dealt with it.   The ball has been stuck in your court for a while. 





No you have not delt with it.  Telling me I am not perfect does not move the ball.

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