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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 4:12AM #151
CometintheSky
Posts: 74

Paraphrastic speaking regarding John 3:16, the seceond half of the verse teaches that those who believe in Christ would not perish and they will (present tense) have eternal (present tense) life. Therfore, it would stand to reason that according to this teaching it is a direct promise from Christ, Himself, which is due to the fact that He had stated His own teaching to those who believe in Him in order for them to make certain that they would never lose his/her eternal salvation for any reason.


The N.T., paraphrastic speaking, also teaches as a direct promise from Christ, that He would not leave believers and that He would be with the believers all of the time. Since that is the case, the believers would be with Christ forever throughout eternity. 


The Bible teaches in the N.T., paraphrastic speaking, that those who believe in Him (the Father) that had sent Christ would have (present tense) everlasting life. No doubt, this is a direct promise from God, which means that believers will have eternal life with God.


Paraphrastic speaking, the Bible also teaches that believers (backsliders are included due to that they are eternally saved) that are in the hands of the Father and of the Son, all of the believers would not be snatched out of the Father's hand and the Son's hand, which is a direct promise. God is so powerful that through His power, He keeps all of the believers to stay put, therefore, in the literal sense, any outside forces that are not in the hands of the Father and the hand of the Son, do not have the power to snatch believers out of the hands of the Father and Son. This of course also means that even the combined power of all of the believers are powerless to snatch themselves from the hands of the Father and of the Son, as well.


Regarding the Holy Spirit, paraphrastic speaking, the Bible teaches that the Spirit would indwell believers always, which is a present tense direct promise. Since that is the literal case, it would stand to reason that the Spirit would never leave believers for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, all of the believers would have (present tense) eternal life and they would always be with Christ throughout eternity.


Paraphrastic speaking, the Father had given all believers to Christ, and according to Christ, He would not lose (present tense) any believers whatsoever...not even one believer, as well. This teaching of the Bible is a literal present tense direct promise. Since that is the case, all of the believers will always have forever (present tense) eternal life/salvation through eternity with Christ.  

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 11:55AM #152
smcisaac
Posts: 7,940

Just because you believe you are saved doesn't mean you actually are.  Maybe backsliders were never really elected to begin with.


Even if you are in fact among the elect, that doesn't mean you get to skip the process of sanctification.  Maybe backsliders are just some of the elect who are walking down a particularly bumpy road. 


And maybe the process of sanctification isn't even completed in this lifetime, at least for a lot of people.  Maybe it continues after death.  Maybe there are a lot of members of the elect whom you wouldn't be able to recognize from their beliefs or behavior in this lifetime. 


Maybe the Atonement even elected everybody.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 4:39PM #153
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed



I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....and


 
I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens and Earth in Revelations


1. POSITION changes at salvation ...from outsider to full "son" of God
 Hebrews 10:10-14 
 1 Corinthians 6:11
2. PRACTICE changes, and there is spiritual growth toward maturity as followers imitate the model of perfection
 1 Peter 1:6-7, 13-16
3. PRESENCE and POWER of sin in the believer's life disappears totally in time eternal
 Revelations: 21-22


Substitution = "for" = in place of + for the benefit of
 Matthew 20:28
 Galatians 3:13
 1 Peter 3:18 
 2 Corinthians 5:21
Atonement = "at-one ment" with God through the required SACRIFICE for SIN ...once ...FOR... all
 Hebrews 7:27  
 Hebrews 9:26-28
 Hebrews 10:10-14
 1 Peter 3:18
Redemption - purchased out of the market place / pawn shop of sin and freed by paying  a price
 1 Corinthians 1:30
 Hebrews 9:12
 1 Timothy 2:5-6
 Titus 2:11-14
Reconciliation - to change from the status of alienation to the status of family
 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 
 Hebrews 2:17
Adoption - receiving new status by being taken from a family not your own into a new family...
 from outsider to full privileges of "son"
 Isaiah 62:2
 Romans 8:12-17
 Galatians 4:1-5
Propitiation - appease or satisfy a God angry with sin
 Mark 3:29
 Mark 14:21
 Romans 1:18
 Ephesians 5:6
 Romans 3:21-26.
 1 John 2:1-2
Justification - "just-if -i -had never sinned"~ = forgiveness of sins?
    legal term : not guilty, acquitted, no sentence, no condemnation, law has been perfectly been satisfied, fine paid.
 Luke 24:47 
 Acts 10:43
 1 John 2:12 
 Acts 13:39 
 Romans 3:21-26
 Romans 5:1,9
 Romans 10:10 
 1 Corinthians 6:11
 Galatians 2:16-17
 Galatians 3:11,24
 Titus 3:7
 James 2:21-26.
 1 John 1:8-10


Santified / Sanctification: - "to set apart" : the goats become sheep and then slowly become "saintly" and "holy" and more complete


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 1:38AM #154
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
Ok, i went through 11.5 pages of this before i couldn't stand it no more:

Show of hands!  Who dares declare themselves "saved" right now, despite Christ's clear and unequivocal "But he who endures to the end will be saved"?(please note: "will be" is future tense.)

Anyone here who is unshakably certain that they have indeed "endure(d) to the end"?  No?

Then all you truthfully have is the sure and certain HOPE of salvation.
Any who defy Christ's clear teachings and words(yes, including Paul) do so at the peril of their souls, for the arrogance of declaring contrary to the teachings of Christ.  Salvation does not and cannot occur until after "the end," however Christ meant it when He said it.

By way of analogy, all of us are shipwrecked souls, floating on the ocean of humanity, waiting TO BE saved---but none are ACTUALLY and TRULY and INDUBITABLY saved until the rescue boat puts them ashore on dry land.  That these floating souls have overcome drugs, alcohol, nicotine, philandering, adultery, theft, rage, jealousy, envy, or any number of other sins on the WAY to the shore still don't mean squat as to actual salvation(likely in conjunction with hearing the words "Well done, My good and faithful servant.").

Even Paul gets it when he says that he must work out his salvation in fear and trembling; Christ is also quite clear that only those who are "as a little child" shall be granted entry, too, thereby describing the essential ingredient to true salvation---humility---without which none ever have a chance.

As to works?  Christ said that only he who DOES the works of His Father will enter; sounds perfectly clear that actions are expected.  If that ain't enough, there's always what He said at Matthew 25, too, i.e. "I was hungry, and YOU FED Me; thirsty, and YOU GAVE Me drink.  I was a stranger, and YOU WELCOMED Me; naked, and YOU CLOTHED Me, sick or in prison and YOU VISITED Me."

All of the words in caps are actions," not sit-on-your-behind-excuses-for-enjoying-your "Grace."

Remember always the following words:

There is no salvation in Paul or any other name that is named under Heaven than that of Y'shua ha Mashiach.

Who else is King of kings and Lord of Lords?  Who else is the Cornerstone?  Who else is the Door?
Therefore equate(or, God forbid, elevate) the words of Paul or any other figure, biblical or not, to His at the peril of your foolish, ignorant, arrogant, graceless, pretentious soul.

Warmest regbards-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 3:03AM #155
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

I am saved eternally...Ephesians 8

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2012 - 12:54PM #156
Hatman
Posts: 9,634

Mar 24, 2012 -- 3:03AM, Rgurley4 wrote:

I am saved eternally...Ephesians 8


Yeah, keep on trustin' Paul over Christ, and good luck with that.

As for me and my house, our faith and trust is in Christ and none else, for only He never leads astray to the slightest degree.  Paul?  His words have been used to justify a legion of sins, including(but certainly not limited to) the "destruction of the flesh" that Torquemada and many other devilish miscreants PRETENDING to be christians have gleefully engaged in.

Salvation is found in Christ alone; His words are to be esteemed, cherished, loved and obeyed over those of all others, without exception, without equivocation, without dissimulation.

Warmest regards-

Hatman

"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2012 - 11:32AM #157
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,683

 JESUS ALONE for salvation...JESUS SAVES...NOT endure by your human "good works"


John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one COME to the Father but THROUGH Me..."Come" through the gift of unmerited Grace through Spirit-led Faith...
...NOT endure by your human "good works"


Knock and salvation will be opened!


John 3 ...extracts...Jesus: to the inquiring Nicodemus...including the famous John 3:16
'You must be born again (spiritually).'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone "born of the Spirit" (from above)....(NEED fulfilled...a NEW LIFE... CHANGED SPIRIT)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (cruxified ?)
that everyone who BELIEVES in Him may have eternal life....NOT endure by your human "good works"


John 6: 28-29...Jesus: to His followers
28 Then they (disciples) asked him, "What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent." ...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Jesus to Mary the Magdelene):.... "Your FAITH has saved YOU; go in peace."...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Jesus to followers...WARNING)...
"ENTER by the "narrow gate": (through Jesus the Christ). ...NOT endure by your human "good works
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to DESTRUCTION, and those (unbelievers) who enter by it are MANY."


John 15 (NIV) (extracts...comments),,,,Jesus: He is The Vine and Believers are His Branches...after salvation: JOY
......"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains (stay?) in Me and I in Him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from Me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)...NOT endure by your human "good works"
As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Now remain in My love.
If you obey My commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain in My love,
just as I have obeyed My Father's commands and remain in His love.
I have told you this so that My JOY may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you...
This is My command: Love each other.
John 13:34...Jesus: to followers:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


Matthew 22:37-40 (NASB)...Jesus confirms the lawyer's statement of the " BIG TWO" ...Law = Mosaic "BIG TEN"...after salvation: OBEDIENCE


37 And He said to him, “ ‘
 (BIG ONE) YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD
                     WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38 This is the great and FOREMOST commandment.
39 The second is like it,
(BIG TWO) ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS (you love)YOURSELF.’
40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law (OT Mosaic "LAW") and the Prophets.”...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following ) WORKS  is DEAD (judged spiritully useless)...NOT endure by your human "good works"


FINALLY my VIEWS:


FAITH / BELIEF is used over 200 times in the Bible as the sole requirement to finding and following God.


Romans 10 and Ephesians 8 gets us our "fire insurance". We become "born again from above" ...John 3....Christ-followers gain ALL the blessings of SALVATION.


The blessings / results of salvation:


1. Substitution:  "in the place of"
2. Redemption:  " pay ransom, remove, and release "
3. Reconciliation:  "alienation ends"
4. Propititation:  "satisfaction with action"
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...nature changed
6. Justification:  "view: Just-if-I..never" by the Advocate...legal term
7. Sanctification:  "goats to sheep" / "born again" / became "son" /


To me, "Belief" and "Faith" as used in the New Testament are almost identical in meaning and synonomous.


"Believe" occurs 152 times in 140 verses in the NASB...mostly in the NT.


G4103  pistos  (pe-sto's) =   ~faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure
G4100  pisteuo  (pe-styü'-o)  = ~believe, commit unto, commit to (one's) trust, be committed unto, be put in trust with, be commited to one's trust, believer


John 1:12 (NASB)
...But as many as RECEIVED Him (spiritually!), to them He gave the right to become children of God ,
even to those who BELIEVE (G4100) in His NAME,...NOT endure by your human "good works


I believe / rely on an excellent Bible scholar's statement:


"The CONDITION(S) for SALVATION...
Salvation is conditioned solely on FAITH / (BELIEF) in Jesus The Christ.
("repentance" may be a SYNONYM when understood to be a "re-thinking and a "turning around")
Nearly 200 times FAITH (or BELIEF) is stated as the single condition in the New Testament.
That FAITH must be placed in The Christ as one's substutute for and Savior from sin (/sins)...
The FALSE additions to FAITH...(see my list in other threads!)
REF: Ryrie Study Bible...expanded NASB...p. 2073


John 17:17 (NASB)
Sanctify them in the truth; Your WORD is TRUTH.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 10:32AM #158
TemplarS
Posts: 6,787

Faith, or belief, is fine so far as it goes. But none of the people who wrote about this in the NT sat back on their butt and said "I have faith" and did nothing else. For them (and for us, ideally) faith is active. It is not something you have, it is something you live. Jesus spoke against those who called him "Lord" but did not do as he commanded.  Paul, who is widely seen as being the "sola fide" man, was constantly chiding people for failing to live their lives up to Christ's standards, to live, as he put it, "in Christ." 


Anyhow- in the dichotomy between faith and works- why is our act of accepting Jesus in itself not a "work"?   


I think that is a false premise; I don't see faith/works as a dichotomy at all. Both are inseparable results of the Holy Spirit constantly at work within us; we are free to reject them both, or embrace them both, but it is a package deal.   


Generally, if somebody says  "I have faith", or "I have accepted Jesus as savior", or "I am saved", I am going to look for evidence of this beyond their words. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 11:14PM #159
CometintheSky
Posts: 74

Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:



John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?




God's Word, teaches that the Comforter, aka the Holy Spirit, will not leave believers, therefore, the Spirit will be with believers forever and the Spirit also seals believers, as well. The Bible also teaches that Jesus will not forsake believers and He will be with believers alway. Also, those who believe in Him, meaning the Father, who had sent Jesus to the earth, will have everlasting life. Those who believe in Jesus and His name will have eternal life, as well.


The phrases, everlasting life and eternal life means that believers will live forever throughout eternity. Therefore, the Bible teaches that John 3:16 KJV and other similar verses, that believers will be with the one and only God in existence, namely The Trinity. Also, God is an all powerful God, so much so, He will always keep believers in His hand, and in so doing, He will never lose believers by any means whatsoever, even not one believer, as well. No doubt, the believers will not be able to cast themselves out of the hand of God for any reason, as well. The Bible teaches that God is a truthful God, therefore, it would stand to reason that He never lies. It would stand to reason, that the latter half of John 3:16 KJV and other verses that are in reference to believers having  eternal/everlasting lives are direct promises from God. Since God does not lie and He states the truth, that would mean that His promises about eternal/everlasting salvation and that believers will be with Him throughout eternity, would always be kept by God, and in so doing it would stand to reason that God would never go back on His Word or break his promises for any reason, whatsoever. Therefore,, all believers would never lose his/her salvation for whatever the reasons may be, and since that is the case, all believers will be with God forever. 


God has given those who had accepted Jesus Christ, as his/her personal Lord and Saviour, the free gift of salvation, which is a permanent, no strings attached, gift. The free gift of salvation has never been a temporary, as well as, a conditional gift whatsoever. If the free gift of salvation was conditional, that would mean that the gift of salvation would not be a free gift and that would mean that believers would have to work, as a condition, to maintain the gift to keep it as a permanent gift. If the gift was conditional, that would mean that those who had accepted the gift would be boasting in heaven to one another regarding all the work they did to keep the gift as a permanent gift. Since they had worked to keep the gift as such, it would also mean that they had done other work, as well, which means that they had worked his/her way into heaven and in so doing would be boasting how they got to heaven on their own merit. The Bible teaches that no one can get to heaven through their own work in order to have no boasting. As you can see, the above scenario proves that God gives the unconditional and permanent free gift of salvation. Also, God is a loving God and because out of His love for believers, He would never be an Indian giver by taking back his free gift of salvation for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, as you can see, He would never take back His free gift of salvation.


The verss, which I call salvation verses, and the free gift of salvation does proove that all believers will always have, on a permanent basis, eternal/everlasting life with God throughout eternity.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 10:03PM #160
jesusfreakgal
Posts: 938

The bible says (regarding salvation): For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9). If salvation is a gift, why would it be taken away? When we get birthday or Christmas, or wedding gifts, the intension is not for them to be 'you can keep it only if...' or 'enjoy the x, y, or z, but if you behave/ do x thing(s) I will take it away'. That just doesn't happen. Gifts, rarely, if ever, come with restrictions. Why then would God's gift of salvation be any acception?


JFG

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