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3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:00AM #121
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."


Born again Christians don't usually go around killing- if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.


I trust you are aware of the gruesome case of John Calvin, who promised to his crony William Farel in Geneva ...


"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, February 13, 1546)


... then, while Servetus was being tried ...


“I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death, but I desire that he should be spared the cruelty of the punishment” (Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus arrest)


... finally, after Servetus' ashes had long been scattered by the wind ...


"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (Letter fo John Calving to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561)


Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:04AM #122
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:18PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


I thought it was obvious that you knew by yourself what "to save us from sin" means. But as you don't, then let me explain.



Obviously, I know what it means to me--just as obviously, not to you.


Sin (which is NOT a change in human nature, BUT a change in human state, since "sin entered the world through one man" and spread to all) is a state of separation from God. Jesus, through his sacrificial death, having conquered sin, death and the devil, has, so to speak, created a bridge across the chasm between man and God.



This is confused with many gaping holes--the primary one being He "conquered sin, death, and the devil."  So?  What does that mean for us?  We obviously sin, we obviously die, we are obviously tempted by the devil.  Where is the "saving" here?


[a] Why "pejorative", especially as you have used the acronym OSAS yourself, quite unproblematically, at least since Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008?



You know, I simply must ask:  are you intentionally sleazy or does it just come naturally? 


First, I quoted Matt's post and it was Matt who "used the acronym OSAS, quite unproblematically", not me.


Second, and more importantly, my very first post on the thread to which it refers:


"btw, "Once Saved Always Saved" (rather pejorative, as I'm sure you know ;-) ) is formally known as the doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints."

It really should be, "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved." Or, better, "If Saved Always Saved."


So you, yourself, have just revealed what I've already said--you have absolutely zero excuse for continuing with your pejoratives and ignorant or intentional perversions of the doctrine for the past 4 years and counting.




[b] "whatever you conceive it to be" ... "several times before" ... "if you recall": what a pathetic string of weasel-words ...



You call it "a pathetic string of weasel-words."  I call it "your pathetic Alzheimer's." 



[c] If you had looked properly, and without prejudice, you would have noticed that, with my edit of 12:24, 22 January 2009, I simply created a link between the acronym OSAS and the "redirect": Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints (already existing since 2005). All this was later complicated by the necessity of "disambiguation" for the acronym OSAS.



First, "OSAS" was existing since 2005 for exactly the reason it does exist which a prior person helpfully noted and which you "corrected" (totally in error, I might add) and subsequently mucked up: it's an acronym for "obstructive sleep apnea syndrome."


Second and subsequently, the only "disambiguation" required was due to your erroneous edits.



All above board, except for the paranoid ... er ... systematically suspicious ...



Who is "paranoid" or "systematically suspicious"?  It was you who confirmed that when there are blatant pejoratives regarding Christianity on wikipedia, you, in part, are responsible for them.  I really could give a shit what you do there.  Enjoy your bigotry in good health--who am I to deprive you of it?


The laboriousness and clumsiness of your answer reveals all your difficulty.



The laboriousness and clumsiness is all in your interpretation.


My dichotomy simply says that there is a relation between sin ad salvation, and that, AFAIAC, there is no doubt that:


1. There is/are sin/s that is/are unforgivable, "leading unto death". (hint: NO salvation)



And they are?



2. No amount of faith will ever compensate for a lack of love for thy neighbor, which whatever you may delude yourself to the contrary, does NOT "flow spontaneously" from faith. Otherwise the entire chapter James 2 (and, in particular, James 2:14-26 - Faith and Works Together) would be entirely meaningless. (hint: NO salvation)


If you don't agree with the above, all you had/have to do is provide ... Adelphe's creative spin ...



Again, your lack of understanding of James 2 is entirely your own.


Why? It is one of the conditions (IF ... IF ... IF ...)



Very interesting choice of terms "conditions."


It's just gets more and more interesting.


The "former" ... what? The "latter" ... what?



Obviously your two subjects--"unconditional assurance" and "repent[ance]".


[btw, I wouldn't call any version of your concepts surrounding salvation "the Catholic doctrine."]


Some people (those who are manifestly saints) do "progress", although, even for them some "dark night of the soul" is always possible. Progression is NOT an irreversible process.



LOL!!!


I can't even comment here without tons more information.


Let's start with "progression."  Exactly what is progressing and then, where, why, when, and how?


Then (and only then) can we attempt to untangle what the lunacy of "reversible" "progression" might mean.



What is "causing all this falling" is human frailty.



How entirely, uninformatively...sanitized.  What's frail?  Why?



What is causing repentance is our conscience, inspired by God's Holy Spirit.



Don't you have a conscience before your fall?  Why doesn't it trouble you then?



What iis causing progression is human capacity to hold on to God's free grace.
(Free, but we have to do something with it, you know?)



What, exactly, are you getting from that grace, how does it help you progress, and what do you "do" with it?


I know you are seriously out of your comfort zone when you provide such trite, insipid, staccato responses as those above.


Your difficulty is, once again, obvious and visible: you could (if you could ...) have answered my question here and now, without the obfuscation of the "resend" to a remote post, which has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 2:17, or Matt 9:13 or Luke 5:31-32, but ONLY with Ezekiel 18, and then with Luke 13:3.


Botched ...


MdS




I have no "difficulty"--instead, I have no interest in bringing you up to speed on a discussion that occured and concluded over 50 posts ago.


Once again, you've entirely ignored (or are not capable of grasping) the context and trajectory of that discussion.


Speak for yourself re "botched."

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:32AM #123
Adelphe
Posts: 28,744

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


...Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS




Is it just murder you need to concern yourself with? 


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."


btw, when does any of this start coming into play?


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...Love thy neighbor



Do you think that goes for whomever you decide deserves it or whenever you feel like it?


“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


bbtw, how do you know John Calvin was "unrepentant"?


Will you now put your money where your mouth is?  Or...


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.



...condemn yourself with your own words?


"for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


bbbtw, where's the murderous Moses at the moment?  Last I knew, he was talking with Christ at His Transfiguration.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 10:52AM #124
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

What kind of answer is that? Matthew 5:22 (on murder but also anger) and also 5:27-28 (on adultery but also lust) is certainly not meant to equate the act with the thought. To believe otherwise is to take the position that we are condemned for our thoughts, which means everyone is condemned (so far, I assume you are nodding in agreement), which means that God condemns us because we are imperfect... and if we are imperfect, is that our fault or our creator's fault? Oh, God created us perfect, but we chose to sin? That's what I was told back when I went to churches. It didn't make sense then and it still does not. If we were created perfect, we would not choose to sin (whatever that infinitely pliable and slippery term may mean); because to choose something bad is perverse, and perversion in incompatible with perfection. Ergo, the very act of choosing to do something bad is evidence of a pre-existing state of imperfection.


Sp what could Jesus have meant? I'm sure that I am essentially alone in my view that he was saying that in the moments when we are consumed by anger, we are spiritually blocking out the light of God within ourselves--as it were, dead for that moment. And we are denying the aliveness of the target of our rage by turning that person into an object against which we direct our wrath. Likewise, those moments when we are consumed by lust. Such moments are part of the human condition, and Jesus did not hate humanity; he was warning us not to let ourselves be consumed by such feelings.


In short, there IS a difference between feeling anger and committing murder. To equate the two is moral incoherence.

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 5:42PM #125
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,096

Adelphe


Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:04AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:18PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

I thought it was obvious that you knew by yourself what "to save us from sin" means. But as you don't, then let me explain.


Obviously, I know what it means to me--just as obviously, not to you.


That is why it was obviously necessary to make foolproof what I meant, which is precisely what I did. Obviously ...


[Adelphe]


Sin (which is NOT a change in human nature, BUT a change in human state, since "sin entered the world through one man" and spread to all) is a state of separation from God. Jesus, through his sacrificial death, having conquered sin, death and the devil, has, so to speak, created a bridge across the chasm between man and God.

This is confused with many gaping holes--the primary one being He "conquered sin, death, and the devil."  So?  What does that mean for us?  We obviously sin, we obviously die, we are obviously tempted by the devil.  Where is the "saving" here?


No "confusion" and no "holes", not even small.


That Jesus, with his sacrificial death, "conquered sin, death, and the devil" is common Christian theology, and the fact that we still die, still sin and are still tempted by the devil does NOT count as a confutation of the efficacy of what Jesus did. Christians, true Christians accept through faith that Jesus, with his crucifixion, death ad resurrection, has irreversibly conquered  a "stronghold", the Golgotha, has conjoined again God and humans. This is what his atonement (at-one-ment) is about: NOT some commercial-legalistic "substitution", NOR (God forbid) some penal "satisfaction".


[Adelphe]


Why "pejorative", especially as you have used the acronym OSAS yourself, quite unproblematically, at least since Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008?

... First, I quoted Matt's post and it was Matt who "used the acronym OSAS, quite unproblematically", not me.


Second, and more importantly, my very first post on the thread to which it refers:


"btw, "Once Saved Always Saved" (rather pejorative, as I'm sure you know ;-) ) is formally known as the doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints."

It really should be, "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved." Or, better, "If Saved Always Saved."


So you, yourself, have just revealed what I've already said--you have absolutely zero excuse for continuing with your pejoratives and ignorant or intentional perversions of the doctrine for the past 4 years and counting.


First, this is what you wrote:


Matt16-18 wrote:
I think this topic deserves its own thread. I will start one called:

OSAS & Apostasy


I see you've done that.  I will be there directly! [Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008]


I see no trace whatsoever of "problematic", in the reply that you gave to Matt16-18 ...


Second, that you insist calling "Once Saved Always Saved" "pejorative" of the expression "perseverance of the saints" reveals a problem which is entirely yours, because the historical "perseverance of the saints", the more colloquial "Once Saved Always Saved" and also Free Grace theology are just slight variants of the same idea, which ultimately is the sola fide.


Even more finicky are the alleged differences between "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved" or "If Saved Always Saved". The former is simply redundant, the latter is 100% equivalent, because "once", in the phrase is a conjunction that includes ALL the meanings of "as soon as; if ever; when".


“Miss A., when she was 27, had a sudden conversion to Jesus as her personal saviour. From that moment she is saved and cannot lose her salvation evermore.”


[Adelphe]


"whatever you conceive it to be" ... "several times before" ... "if you recall": what a pathetic string of weasel-words ...

You call it "a pathetic string of weasel-words."  I call it "your pathetic Alzheimer's."


But I remember perfectly all your pathetic arguments also, and know that they are the reason for your vagueness ...


[Adelphe]


If you had looked properly, and without prejudice, you would have noticed that, with my edit of 12:24, 22 January 2009, I simply created a link between the acronym OSAS and the "redirect": Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints (already existing since 2005). All this was later complicated by the necessity of "disambiguation" for the acronym OSAS.

First, "OSAS" was existing since 2005 for exactly the reason it does exist which a prior person helpfully noted and which you "corrected" (totally in error, I might add) and subsequently mucked up: it's an acronym for "obstructive sleep apnea syndrome."


Second and subsequently, the only "disambiguation" required was due to your erroneous edits.


First, you botched it once again: it was the "redirect", Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints that was already existing since 2005): I simply added the acronym that, as anybody (except for you) knows perfectly well, is certainly more commonly associated to "Once Saved Always Saved" than either "Obstructive Sleep Apnea Syndrome" or "Overseas Scandinavian Airlines System"! LOL!


Second, see above.


[Adelphe]


My dichotomy [EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count] simply says that there is a relation between sin ad salvation, and that, AFAIAC, there is no doubt that:

1. There is/are sin/s that is/are unforgivable, "leading unto death". (hint: NO salvation)And they are?


Essentially, unrepentant disobedience to God and lack of love for neighbor.


[Adelphe]


2. No amount of faith will ever compensate for a lack of love for thy neighbor, which whatever you may delude yourself to the contrary, does NOT "flow spontaneously" from faith. Otherwise the entire chapter James 2 (and, in particular, James 2:14-26 - Faith and Works Together) would be entirely meaningless. (hint: NO salvation)

If you don't agree with the above, all you had/have to do is provide ... Adelphe's creative spin ...



Again, your lack of understanding of James is entirely your own.


It is entirely obvious that you see James' Faith AND Works through your Polarizing Sola Fide Specs©®™


[Adelphe]


Why? It is one of the conditions (IF ... IF ... IF ...)

Very interesting choice of terms "conditions."


It's just gets more and more interesting.


Really? Why? Do you take issue with those three IF ... IF ... IF ...? Or would you use a term more appropriate than "conditions" to describe them? Or what?


[Adelphe]


The "former" ... what [isn't unqualified]? The "latter" ... what [is indispensable]?

Obviously your two subjects--"unconditional assurance" and "repent[ance]".


Coming out of your smoky obfuscations:


What does it mean that "unconditional assurance" "isn't unqualified"?


Where does the doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" explicitly affirms that "repentance is indispensable"?


[Adelphe] [btw, I wouldn't call any version of your concepts surrounding salvation "the Catholic doctrine."]


I challenge you to prove that what I say for Faith and Works and against "unconditional assurance" is not in line with the Catholic doctrine ...


[Adelphe]


Some people (those who are manifestly saints) do "progress", although, even for them some "dark night of the soul" is always possible. Progression is NOT an irreversible process.

I can't even comment here without tons more information.


Let's start with "progression."  Exactly what is progressing and then, where, why, when, and how?


Then (and only then) can we attempt to untangle what the lunacy of "reversible" "progression" might mean.


You asked "do you ever progress in your model?". I obviously assumed that you knew what you meant by the words you used ...


Reversible, anyway, means that it is, to use Paul's image, like a sport:  you are never sure that you have won until the finishing line.


[Adelphe]


What is "causing all this falling" is human frailty.

How entirely, uninformatively...sanitized.  What's frail?  Why?


"Sanitized"? What an odd word to use! How totally un-human of you to need explanations about human frailty ...


[Adelphe]


What is causing repentance is our conscience, inspired by God's Holy Spirit.

Don't you have a conscience before your fall?  Why doesn't it trouble you then?


Oh but it does, it does ... 


The problem is always our frailty, our weakness ... human, all to human ...


[Adelphe]


What is causing progression is human capacity to hold on to God's free grace.
(Free, but we have to do something with it, you know?)

What, exactly, are you getting from that grace, how does it help you progress, and what do you "do" with it?


I know you are seriously out of your comfort zone when you provide such trite, insipid, staccato responses as those above.


I am perfectly comfortable with my answers, for the simply reason that I simply and sincerely believe that what I say is at the core of the Christian message. But I seriously doubt that even the great Augustine could give detailed answers to your questions.


What is certainly NOT the case is that God's grace is some sort of "vaccine" that would work irresistibly in us.


[Adelphe]


Your difficulty is, once again, obvious and visible: you could (if you could ...) have answered my question ...

["... are you suggesting, perchance, that according to Mark's version (Mark 2:17), and also to Matthew's (Matt 9:13), both of which don't include the clause "to repentance", Jesus was calling the sinners directly to salvation, skipping the necessary repentance and obedience? "] [#]


... here and now, without the obfuscation of the "resend" to a remote post, which has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 2:17, or Matt 9:13 or Luke 5:31-32, but ONLY with Ezekiel 18, and then with Luke 13:3.



I have no "difficulty" --instead, I have no interest in bringing you up to speed on a discussion that occurred and concluded over 50 posts ago.


Once again, you've entirely ignored (or are not capable of grasping) the context and trajectory of that discussion.


Yours is disgraceful obfuscation and bluff. Why don't you simply answer my question [#], that you've NEVER confronted before, in any context and with anyone?


Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:32AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


Is it just murder you need to concern yourself with?


No. Why? My comment was perfectly appropriate, in response to Dave's post ... 


[Adelphe] “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."


btw, when does any of this start coming into play?


"Coming into play"? I have no idea what your question is supposed to mean.


[Adelphe]


...Love thy neighbor [from MdS' post #106]

Do you think that goes for whomever you decide deserves it or whenever you feel like it?


[quotation of Matt 5:43-48]


Love, sometimes, means correcting, and cannot be separated from truth.


[Adelphe]bbtw, how do you know John Calvin was "unrepentant"?


Will you now put your money where your mouth is?


Well, at least until 1561 John Calvin was obviously unrepentant, and he died in 1564, so, maybe he repented in those 2-3 years ...


... lets hope so for the sake of his soul ...


... although there is no evidence ...


[Adelphe]Or...


...

IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved. [from MdS' post #106]



...condemn yourself with your own words?


"for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Again, saying the truth about John Calvin is NOT against love. 


Jesus had no hesitation with the hypocrites (Matt 23:1-36) ...


[Adelphe]bbbtw, where's the murderous Moses at the moment?  Last I knew, he was talking with Christ at His Transfiguration.


Presumably God has judged him favourably, on the whole.


What about the murderous Elijah and the 400 prophets of Baal?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 10:18AM #126
lope
Posts: 11,796

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:23PM, Adelphe wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:32PM, lope wrote:


I see no homonization here.



Likewise, I'm sure...


Just ignoring the teachings about the wicked will die and not live and the righteous will live and not die, both in the Old and New Testament.  I think God will recreate us as many times as needed to achieve the bottom line--the righteous shall live and not die.  Jesus taught clearly in Matt 25:31 and following for example that our actions have a connection to being gifted with eternal life.  You are determined to deny that connection.  There is no harmony going on that I can see.




Exactly--they do.


You've just got them in the wrong order.





It seems to be the same order Ezekiel and Jesus has them--turn from wickedness to righteousnes then hope for eternal life--not promised before the turning.  Jesus said if you do not turn you perish.  Luke 13:3

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 10:26AM #127
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."


Born again Christians don't usually go around killing- if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.


I trust you are aware of the gruesome case of John Calvin, who promised to his crony William Farel in Geneva ...


"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, February 13, 1546)


... then, while Servetus was being tried ...


“I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death, but I desire that he should be spared the cruelty of the punishment” (Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus arrest)


... finally, after Servetus' ashes had long been scattered by the wind ...


"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (Letter fo John Calving to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561)


Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS





Perserverence of the saints and Eternal security are not the same doctrine-
they just achieve the same result



Calvin persecuted my Anabaptist ancestors as well

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 10:48AM #128
57
Posts: 23,959

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


Which means what, exactly?


It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.






You misquoted the scripture.  You forgot the words "ALL".... All your heart, all your mind....do you really think you can do that?

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 11:20AM #129
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,952

ETERNAL SECURITY...aka...Can a true Christ-follower lose "salvation"?


BACK T0 BASICS...


I believe the true "born again from above" Christ-follower enjoys salvation that is ETERNALLY SECURE.


On the FAITH vs WORKS debate, SEE:


1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS


PROGRESSIVE salvation ...


I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed
I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....and
I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens and Earth in Revelations


Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS to believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40


Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...."
Romans 8: 35-39


 John 10...Jesus the God-Man holds you in His HAND...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!


The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30


NO ONE has EVER undone these spiritual works!


If GOOD WORKS do not follow salvation, then perhaps there was no true salvation  in the first place! ...saved by Grace through Spirit-led Faith!

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 11:26AM #130
Heretic_for_Christ
Posts: 5,488

Cheap grace. Anyone can cry "Lord! Lord!"

I prayed for deliverance from the hard world of facts and logic to the happy land where fantasy and prejudice reign. But God spake unto me, saying, "No, keep telling the truth," and to that end afflicted me with severe Trenchant Mouth. So I'm sorry for making cutting remarks, but it's the will of God.
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