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Flag 57 January 10, 2012 3:41 PM EST

Romans 8:35


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


   “For your sake we face death all day long; 
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 


 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,  neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Flag Miguel_de_servet January 10, 2012 3:42 PM EST

57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 2:28PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:02PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Eternal life is a gift. As such it can be rejected or, even if accepted, wasted.


“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. [or: in danger of an eternal damnation] ” (Mark 3:29)


If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. (1 John 5:16)



You need to tell us just what "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit" is if you are going to use that to show how one can lose their salvation.


Can we admit that there is any difference between the Gospels, on such absolutely fundamental question? Of course not! Therefore ALL these expressions are absolutely equivalent ...


unforgivable sin = unpardonable sin = eternal sin = sin that leads to death = mortal sin


 ... and they all essentially consist in the blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit.


Now, of course we still have to establish beyond doubt what is the "blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit".


Let's look again at a safe source, the Scripture. The answer comes from the "context" and it is, respectively, for Mark and Matthew constituted by ...


Mark 3:22-30 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


Matthew 12:22-32 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


 ... whereas, for some peculiar reason, Luke's material is arranged differently, so that the natural context of Luke 12:10 (corresponding to Mark and Matthew) is found at Luke, chapter 11:


Luke 11:14-23 (Jesus and Beelzebul)


Now, if we compare Mark 3:22-30, Matthew 12:22-32 and Luke 11:14-23 it is immediately evident that (apart from the "placement" of Luke 12:10) they all speak of the same episode of Jesus casting our a demon. Let's look at it in detail in Luke's version:


Jesus and Beelzebul


14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the man who had been mute began to speak, and the crowds were amazed. 15 But some of them said, “By the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons, he casts out demons.” 16 Others, to test him, began asking for a sign from heaven. 17 But Jesus, realizing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and a divided household falls. 18 So if Satan too is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? I ask you this because you claim that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 Now if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his possessions are safe. 22 But when a stronger man attacks and conquers him, he takes away the first man’s armor on which the man relied and divides up his plunder. 23 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (Luke 11:14-23)


What is the sin of the Jesus prejudiced enemies, the Scribes and the Pharisees (and of whoever, misled by prejudice, "reasons" in bad faith like them)? The answer, by now, is straightforward: rather than admitting that Jesus was casting out the demon by the power of God's Holy Spirit, they were ready to affirm the absurdity that Jesus was casting out a demon by the power of Satan (or Beelzebul)


So, in conclusion, the Scriptures clearly support the exact opposite of what many believe:


The "unforgivable sin" is NOT, the "rejection of Jesus Christ" (and so says with crystal clarity Jesus himself), BUT the blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit, that is the refusal of recognizing God's presence at work, and the attribution of God's signs even to Satan, to Beelzebub.


This may come as a surprise to many, but it is the undeniable conclusion that we draw from the Gospels.


[57] 1 st John 5:16 has been show that certain sins can lead to physical death.   I have no problem with that.


How utterly ridiculous ... EmbarassedCool


MdS

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST

Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 3:50 PM EST

Miguel_de_serv,


Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 3:53 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 




That post was presented to an individual that claims God is all.  All would include those items in the list above....plus many more items.  


If you believe God is the created rather than the ceator...have at it.  Christianity doesn't teach that.

Flag lope January 10, 2012 4:03 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:41PM, 57 wrote:


Romans 8:35


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


   “For your sake we face death all day long; 
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 


 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,  neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.






None of this contradicts Ezekiel when it says the righteous can turn to wickedness and if they do they will die and not live.  None of these verses say God keeps us close to Him by force and will not let us leave.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 10, 2012 4:13 PM EST

57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, 57 wrote:

Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blasphem[y] of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.


Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


... take care ...


MdS

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 4:37 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, 57 wrote:

Regarding your post below...it is obvious if an individual has been save they have not committed the sins of blasphem[y] of the Holy Spirit...or else they wouldn't be saved.


Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


... take care ...


MdS




Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 4:49 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:53PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 3:50PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 11:38PM, 57 wrote:



But you consider gods a rock, a tree, a star...how do you get to know them personally?






No we don't. 




That post was presented to an individual that claims God is all.  All would include those items in the list above....plus many more items.  


If you believe God is the created rather than the ceator...have at it.  Christianity doesn't teach that.





It is possible that I have misunderstood a part of your post, but I hardly think that I am the only one here. 


I know that Gilly is a polytheist. As such I don't see how you reconcile that with the idea that she is representing a monotheistic pantheist point of view. 


As it is though, I don't believe that your god is either the "creator" or that he is "uncreated".  This is, after all, discuss Christianity. 

Flag davelaw40 January 10, 2012 6:05 PM EST

In fact, Gilly claims to have had encounters with at least three different deities (including being released by the one we worship)

Flag Sacrificialgoddess January 10, 2012 6:37 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:05PM, davelaw40 wrote:


In fact, Gilly claims to have had encounters with at least three different deities (including being released by the one we worship)




And?  Don't tell me you think she is alone in that.

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 6:46 PM EST

You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 6:52 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:46PM, 57 wrote:


You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 





www.sacred-texts.com/



It's kind of sad when some Christians get so worked up about something so demonstrably false.....

Flag mainecaptain January 10, 2012 6:54 PM EST


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:46PM, 57 wrote:


You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 





A god that can not exist without a book, is not much of a god.

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 6:58 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:52PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:46PM, 57 wrote:


You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 





www.sacred-texts.com/



It's kind of sad when some Christians get so worked up about something so demonstrably false.....




Actually the bible was presented n that link..but I really don't consider it as "sacred"  I consider the bible as "Holy"

Flag 57 January 10, 2012 7:00 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:54PM, mainecaptain wrote:



Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:46PM, 57 wrote:


You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 





A god that can not exist without a book, is not much of a god.




Any God that doesn't have a book isn't really worth following.

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 7:01 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:58PM, 57 wrote:


Actually the bible was presented n that link.




So? 


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:58PM, 57 wrote:


.but I really don't consider it as "sacred"  I consider the bible as "Holy"





I don't care if you consider it dirty diapers in a clothes hamper. 

Flag Rgurley4 January 10, 2012 7:06 PM EST

"Eternal Security",,
...is it possible to LOSE one's SALVATION?


ANSWER: conservative Christ-followers say NO!


Excuse the cut and paste argument from other sites:


WE CAN'T- ITS A VIOLATION OF THE ROC'S

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 7:17 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:00PM, 57 wrote:


Any God that doesn't have a book isn't really worth following.





Any god that you only know about from a book really isn't worth following......

Flag Adelphe January 10, 2012 7:28 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:05PM, lope wrote:



God is the one that recreates us spiritually.  That would be the second birth or being born again.



God "recreates us spiritually" means what?


However God will not do that for the wicked,



"And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”



who have killed themselves spiritually, unless they turn from wickedness to righteousness.




And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 


...but God.


Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 10, 2012 7:35 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Adelphe wrote:



God "recreates us spiritually" means what?





I'm so glad you asked that. 


;)

Flag mainecaptain January 10, 2012 7:37 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:17PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:00PM, 57 wrote:


Any God that doesn't have a book isn't really worth following.





Any god that you only know about from a book really isn't worth following......




Quoting



"Any god that you only know about from a book really isn't worth following......"

Flag wohali January 10, 2012 8:33 PM EST

"Any God that doesn't have a book isn't really worth following."


Thor has a book, comic books and a movie, so I guess He's in..............

Flag SecondSonOfDavid January 10, 2012 8:57 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:00PM, 57 wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:54PM, mainecaptain wrote:



Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:46PM, 57 wrote:


You may have all these so-called "gods"...but none have the ability to compare to the God of the bible.



There is no..."bible" complete with prophecies , historically accurate etc. where we can learn about those "gods" methods, reasons...whatever. 





A god that can not exist without a book, is not much of a god.




Any God that doesn't have a book isn't really worth following.




What about movies?


Talk shows?


Twitter followers?





Just trying to keep up.


Flag davelaw40 January 10, 2012 11:52 PM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:37PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 6:05PM, davelaw40 wrote:


In fact, Gilly claims to have had encounters with at least three different deities (including being released by the one we worship)




And?  Don't tell me you think she is alone in that.




NOT AT ALL: I'm contrasting what the poster said about Gilly believing trees are god etc...

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 12:29 AM EST

57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:37PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


What a preposterous reply!


MdS

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 1:04 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:29AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


57


Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:37PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


What a preposterous reply!


MdS




How so? Its basically combining
-we loved Him because He first loved us with by grace are you saved created unto good works

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 1:17 AM EST

Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:04AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:29AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:37PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


What a preposterous reply!


How so? Its basically combining-we loved Him because He first loved us with by grace are you saved created unto good works


Have you also received a shot of that vaccine ...


... the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ that, whatever you do, guarantees a token through for you? Cool


MdS

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 1:30 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:17AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:04AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:29AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:37PM, 57 wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 4:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Like many, most Protestants of the Calvinist "flavor", you obviously consider yourself irreversibly saved, as though you had received a shot of the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ ...


Thank God for that!!  I don't do good to stay saved but rather do good because of my love for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


What a preposterous reply!


How so? Its basically combining-we loved Him because He first loved us with by grace are you saved created unto good works


Have you also received a shot of that vaccine ...


... the HS EternaSalv Vaccine ©®™ that, whatever you do, guarantees a token through for you?

MdS




What about the blood of Christ do you think is not salvic? If you lose it once given: how then is it Eternal? Once Christ is in you: how can He be expunged?



Mocking Christ's eternal life does not bode well for you-you better pray for eternal security

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 2:01 AM EST

Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:30AM, davelaw40 wrote:

What about the blood of Christ do you think is not salvic? If you lose it once given: how then is it Eternal? Once Christ is in you: how can He be expunged?


Mocking Christ's eternal life does not bode well for you-you better pray for eternal security


Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


What I firmly reject is the bizarre OSAS idea, which logically entails that you EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count.


However heterodox, I'm still a Catholic, and I firmly believe that we can fall, and repent and be restored to the grace of God as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 11, 2012 2:19 AM EST

As a non-Christian and outsider, my views may be dismissed, which is okay, but I'd like to offer that my own sense of God convinces me that "salvation" is not a one-time deal but a moment-by-moment opportunity for commitment.


I must emphasize that I don't use the word salvation myself, hence the quotation marks; whatever may happen in some next world after death is God's business, not mine. In this world, the equivalent of "salvation" to me is the constant opportunity for spiritual aliveness, which I experience in exactly those moments that I am willing to shed the thick layers of garbage that usually cloaks the light of God within -- anger, fear, envy, guilt, self-pity, compulsivity, judgmental attitudes, and so on. My task is the create longer streams of such moment-by-moment opportunities taken, and to have my lapses, when I cling to the things that cloak the light of God, become shorter and less frequent.

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 2:41 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:30AM, davelaw40 wrote:

What about the blood of Christ do you think is not salvic? If you lose it once given: how then is it Eternal? Once Christ is in you: how can He be expunged?


Mocking Christ's eternal life does not bode well for you-you better pray for eternal security


Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


What I firmly reject is the bizarre OSAS idea, which logically entails that you EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count.


However heterodox, I'm still a Catholic, and I firmly believe that we can fall, and repent and be restored to the grace of God as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS




neither, Christ paid for our sin once


over time we become sanctified

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 3:40 AM EST

Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:41AM, davelaw40 wrote:

neither, Christ paid for our sin once


Neither ... what? You don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)


over time we become sanctified


Well how convenient! Neither salvation nor santification are a one off thing, they are both part of an ongoing process.


Once again, we may fall, and repent and be restored to God's grace as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 8:24 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:41AM, davelaw40 wrote:

neither, Christ paid for our sin once


Neither ... what? You don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)


over time we become sanctified


Well how convenient! Neither salvation nor santification are a one off thing, they are both part of an ongoing process.


Once again, we may fall, and repent and be restored to God's grace as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS




No, one does not crucify Christ a new-We are always in God's grace/repentence restores fellowship


being born from above is a one off thing-one does not constantly lose and regain ones inheritance-the adopted can not be disinherited-our sin can not separate us from the Love of God once we are saved just fom perfect fellowship


Though we become faithless, He remains faithful: He can not deny Himself.

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 8:26 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


 You don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)




Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Flag Kwinters January 11, 2012 9:55 AM EST

Jan 9, 2012 -- 10:02AM, Kwinters wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:



John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?




According to the passages ascribed to Jesus?  Blaspheming the holy spirit.




bump.

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 10:18 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 9:55AM, Kwinters wrote:


Jan 9, 2012 -- 10:02AM, Kwinters wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:



John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?




According to the passages ascribed to Jesus?  Blaspheming the holy spirit.




bump.




And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.


There was the whole baptism by the Holy Spirit and fire thing which was rather supposed by the prophets to be the point of His coming...

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 10:27 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.



Which means what, exactly?



What I firmly reject is the bizarre OSAS idea, which logically entails that you EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count.



First, there is no such confessional doctrine as "OSAS" and the use of the term simply betrays gross ignorance or is deliberately (and prejudicially, if not hatefully) pejorative.


Second, the doctrine itself entails no such thing, much less "logically."



...I firmly believe that we can fall, and repent and be restored to the grace of God as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS




Speaking of "convenient"...

Flag lope January 11, 2012 11:18 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 8:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:41AM, davelaw40 wrote:

neither, Christ paid for our sin once


Neither ... what? You don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)


over time we become sanctified


Well how convenient! Neither salvation nor santification are a one off thing, they are both part of an ongoing process.


Once again, we may fall, and repent and be restored to God's grace as many times as we fall and repent.


MdS




No, one does not crucify Christ a new-We are always in God's grace/repentence restores fellowship


being born from above is a one off thing-one does not constantly lose and regain ones inheritance-the adopted can not be disinherited-our sin can not separate us from the Love of God once we are saved just fom perfect fellowship


Though we become faithless, He remains faithful: He can not deny Himself.





This is your theology, but it is not what the Bible says.  Ezekiel 18 says the righteous can turn to wickedness and if they do they will die and not live.

Flag lope January 11, 2012 11:21 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 8:26AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


 You don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)




Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.





So you make no effort to compromise these verses right?  Just ignore the ones that say we have no hope if we do not love--right?

Flag lope January 11, 2012 11:31 AM EST

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Adelphe wrote:


Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:05PM, lope wrote:



God is the one that recreates us spiritually.  That would be the second birth or being born again.



God "recreates us spiritually" means what?


However God will not do that for the wicked,



"And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”



who have killed themselves spiritually, unless they turn from wickedness to righteousness.




And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 


...but God.






So you have found conflicting teachings.  Which are you going to ignore?  Or will you attempt to compromise the teachings to see if they are compatible?  Yes we are not saved by works, because we are unable to earn and deserve eternal life with God.  Eternal life will always be a gift to us, underserved.  On the other hand the wicked do not have this hope because God has not promised to gift the wicked with eternal life.  Jesus said we must love God and our neighbor if we are to inherit eternal life and First John says we are lying if we claim to be a child of God and do not love others.  Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live.  I believe that God recreating us spiritually is being reborn spiritually after we have killed our own soul with our own sin.  We can repent as Jesus commanded Luke 13:3.  We can love our neighbor, but only God can recreate us spiritually after we have separated ourselves from God.  We can separate ourselves from God by the way.  The rightous can turn to wickedness.  Ezekeil 18.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 12:13 PM EST

Lope


Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:18AM, lope wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 8:24AM, davelaw40 wrote:

No, one does not crucify Christ a new-We are always in God's grace/repentance restores fellowship


being born from above is a one off thing-one does not constantly lose and regain ones inheritance-the adopted can not be disinherited-our sin can not separate us from the Love of God once we are saved just fom perfect fellowship


Though we become faithless, He remains faithful: He can not deny Himself.


This is your theology, but it is not what the Bible says.  Ezekiel 18 [Individual Retribution: see, in particular Eze 18:4,20] says the righteous can turn to wickedness and if they do they will die and not live.


Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:21AM, lope wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 8:26AM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:40AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

You [Dave] don't seriously believe that, because you are saved by Christ, you can, for instance, dispense with "love thy neighbor", do you?


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


So you make no effort to compromise these verses right?  Just ignore the ones that say we have no hope if we do not love--right?


Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:31AM, lope wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 10, 2012 -- 12:05PM, lope wrote:

[a] God is the one that recreates us spiritually.  [b] That would be the second birth or being born again.  However God will not do that for the wicked, [c] who have killed themselves spiritually, unless they turn from wickedness to righteousness.


[a] God "recreates us spiritually" means what?


[b]  "And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners [to repentance].” [Luke 5:31-32 - relevant omission by Adelphe]


[c] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 


...but God.


So you have found conflicting teachings.  Which are you going to ignore?  Or will you attempt to compromise the teachings to see if they are compatible?  Yes we are not saved by works, because we are unable to earn and deserve eternal life with God.  Eternal life will always be a gift to us, underserved.  On the other hand the wicked do not have this hope because God has not promised to gift the wicked with eternal life.  Jesus said we must love God and our neighbor if we are to inherit eternal life and First John says we are lying if we claim to be a child of God and do not love others.  Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live.  I believe that God recreating us spiritually is being reborn spiritually after we have killed our own soul with our own sin.  We can repent as Jesus commanded Luke 13:3.  We can love our neighbor, but only God can recreate us spiritually after we have separated ourselves from God.  We can separate ourselves from God by the way.  The righteous can turn to wickedness.  Ezekiel 18.


Thank you for your posts. We are on the same wavelength. Smile


I have got nothing to change in what you have written in reply to Dave and Adelphe. Cool


MdS

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 11, 2012 12:15 PM EST

I am trying to follow these arguments, but it ain't easy. Everyone is so certain about salvation depending on this rather than that. Everyone is positive about what God will do based on this or that set of scriptural interpretations... which are apparently self-contradictory and thus permitt no resolution or agreement.


Why not trust that it is God's business, not ours? Would any of you lead your lives very differently if you suddenly had an epiphany and realized that the other side of the argument had been correct all along?


Well, that's probably a silly question, because I am one of those unsaved souls who thinks that all doctrine is man-made, and proclaiming this doctrine versus that doctrine doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 12:26 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:31AM, lope wrote:

So you have found conflicting teachings.  Which are you going to ignore?



None of them.  That's the point.


Or will you attempt to compromise the teachings to see if they are compatible?



Do you mean "harmonize"?  If so, of course that's what Christian hermeneutics dictates.



Yes we are not saved by works, because we are unable to earn and deserve eternal life with God.  Eternal life will always be a gift to us, underserved.  On the other hand the wicked do not have this hope because God has not promised to gift the wicked with eternal life.



Do you see the inconsistency in your argument here?  First, you say we're not saved by works, cannot earn, and do not deserve eternal life--a gift apparently not given "the wicked."  This entails the former have either worked for, earned, or deserved the "gift" (?) over the latter as I don't think you are a hyper-Calvinist (considered heresy even among staunch Calvinists.)


  Jesus said we must love God and our neighbor if we are to inherit eternal life



So this argues that we do earn it, contrary to your prior assertion.


and First John says we are lying if we claim to be a child of God and do not love others.



This is true--where do you think the power to "love your enemies" comes from, however?  Ourselves?


Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live.  I believe that God recreating us spiritually is being reborn spiritually after we have killed our own soul with our own sin.  We can repent as Jesus commanded Luke 13:3.  We can love our neighbor, but only God can recreate us spiritually after we have separated ourselves from God.  We can separate ourselves from God by the way.  The rightous can turn to wickedness.  Ezekeil 18.




One obvious cardinal rule in Biblical (OT or NT) hermeneutics is progressive revelation.  In Christianity, NT doctrine (in fact, Jesus Himself) is the fullness and fulfillment of the OT (Scripture uses the terms "shadow" v. "substance") so it's just bad hermeneutics to flip back and forth between them without allowing the revelation of the New to inform the Old (just as it would be to do the same within the OT text alone.)


But the more interesting and obvious question for me re the above is how many times do you see God "recreating" and/or "rebirthing" us in one lifetime?

Flag lope January 11, 2012 12:32 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:26PM, Adelphe wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:31AM, lope wrote:

So you have found conflicting teachings.  Which are you going to ignore?



None of them.  That's the point.


Or will you attempt to compromise the teachings to see if they are compatible?



Do you mean "harmonize"?  If so, of course that's what Christian hermeneutics dictates.



Yes we are not saved by works, because we are unable to earn and deserve eternal life with God.  Eternal life will always be a gift to us, underserved.  On the other hand the wicked do not have this hope because God has not promised to gift the wicked with eternal life.



Do you see the inconsistency in your argument here?  First, you say we're not saved by works, cannot earn, and do not deserve eternal life--a gift apparently not given "the wicked."  This entails the former have either worked for, earned, or deserved the "gift" (?) over the latter.


  Jesus said we must love God and our neighbor if we are to inherit eternal life



So this argues that we do earn it, contrary to your prior assertion.


and First John says we are lying if we claim to be a child of God and do not love others.



This is true--where do you think the power to "love your enemies" comes from, however?  Ourselves?


Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live.  I believe that God recreating us spiritually is being reborn spiritually after we have killed our own soul with our own sin.  We can repent as Jesus commanded Luke 13:3.  We can love our neighbor, but only God can recreate us spiritually after we have separated ourselves from God.  We can separate ourselves from God by the way.  The rightous can turn to wickedness.  Ezekeil 18.




One obvious cardinal rule in Biblical (OT or NT) hermeneutics is progressive revelation.  In Christianity, NT doctrine (in fact, Jesus Himself) is the fullness and fulfillment of the OT (Scripture uses the terms "shadow" v. "substance") so it's just bad hermeneutics to flip back and forth between them without allowing the revelation of the New to inform the Old (just as it would be to do the same within the OT text alone.)


But the more interesting and obvious question for me re the above is how many times do you see God "recreating" and/or "rebirthing" us in one lifetime?





I see no homonization here.  Just ignoring the teachings about the wicked will die and not live and the righteous will live and not die, both in the Old and New Testament.  I think God will recreate us as many times as needed to achieve the bottom line--the righteous shall live and not die.  Jesus taught clearly in Matt 25:31 and following for example that our actions have a connection to being gifted with eternal life.  You are determined to deny that connection.  There is no harmony going on that I can see.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 12:42 PM EST

Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


Which means what, exactly?


It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.


[Adelphe]


What I firmly reject is the bizarre OSAS idea, which logically entails that you EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count.

First, there is no such confessional doctrine as "OSAS" and the use of the term simply betrays gross ignorance or is deliberately (and prejudicially, if not hatefully) pejorative.


Second, the doctrine itself entails no such thing, much less "logically."


First, I didn't refer to OSAS as a doctrie, but as a "idea" (which, BTW, you have amply resorted to, yourself, at least in the past). In fact "OSAS" (not cosidering apenea ad Scadinavian Airlines ...) is an acronym for Once Saved Always Saved, and aptly describes the Calvinist doctrine of the s.c. Perseverance of the Saints, or, in conclusion "eternal security", "unconditional assurance", and, again, "once saved, always saved". So, with your blah blah, you are simply talking nonsense.


Second, of course the alternatives I proposed are the ONLY possible ones. Otherwise, add your own:


EITHER become sinless; 


OR sin doesn't count;


OR (open for Adelphe's creative spin)


[Adelphe]


...I firmly believe that we can fall, and repent and be restored to the grace of God as many times as we fall and repent.


Speaking of "convenient"...


On the contrary: risky (because there is NO "unconditional assurance") and humbling (because we have to repent each ad every time we fall).

MdS

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 12:49 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners [to repentance].” [Luke 5:31-32 - relevant omission by Adelphe]



First, let me use this as a timely opportunity to remind you of--and direct you to the Forum Guidelines regarding--intertext remarks as a violation of ROC 10.


Second, it was--as is more than obvious--Mark 2 not Luke 5 that was quoted.


Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 11, 2012 1:05 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


 It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.






ROFLMAO!

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 1:22 PM EST

All


Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:05PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.


ROFLMAO!


Can you let me partake in your hyped hilarity?


MdS

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 11, 2012 1:58 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 1:22PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Can you let me partake in your hyped hilarity?





There is a lot of fail in those statements. 



Just because one believes something, does not mean that reality will conform to it. 


Except for a one key factor, I am almost reminded of those old cold war "duck and cover" films that they would show us.  That key factor, of course, being that nuclear bombs actually did exist, and so the possibility of them being used against us was, however slight, real.  Because of this, convincing people that there actually was something that they could do to protect themselves when there really wasn't anything at all, served at least a purpose. 


I see nothing in reality to suggest that there is anything to be "saved from", and as such the idea that "salvation" could be offered because someone "believes" hard enough, is hilariously funny to me. 



Instead, in the grand tradition of hucksters and con men everywhere, Christianity invented a problem, and then low and behold, they invented a solution to sell people.  And ya'll seem to eat it up and ask for more. 



all

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 2:12 PM EST

Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:49PM, Adelphe wrote:


Second, it was--as is more than obvious--Mark 2 not Luke 5 that was quoted.


The remedy is worse than the illness: your explanation is even worse that if it was an omission.


It is a constant Christian exegetic, hermeneutic, and ultimately theological principle that the differences between corresponding passages of the Synoptics (and more in general the Four Canonical Gospels) can be harmonized.


This being premised, are you suggesting, perchance, that according to Mark's version (Mark 2:17), and also to Matthew's (Matt 9:13), both of which do't include the clause "to repentance", Jesus was calling the siners directly to salvation, skipping the necessary repentance and obedience?


If not, WTF is your finicky and fastidious self-correction supposed to mean? Embarassed


MdS

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 4:23 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:32PM, lope wrote:


I see no homonization here.



Likewise, I'm sure...


Just ignoring the teachings about the wicked will die and not live and the righteous will live and not die, both in the Old and New Testament.  I think God will recreate us as many times as needed to achieve the bottom line--the righteous shall live and not die.  Jesus taught clearly in Matt 25:31 and following for example that our actions have a connection to being gifted with eternal life.  You are determined to deny that connection.  There is no harmony going on that I can see.




Exactly--they do.


You've just got them in the wrong order.

Flag Adelphe January 11, 2012 5:38 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.



I thought it was obvious that the question was what could you possibly mean by "salvific."  Said another way, what does it mean to be "saved."


First, I didn't refer to OSAS as a doctrie, but as a "idea"



Then if you know it's not a doctrine, obviously it was deliberately pejorative.


(which, BTW, you have amply resorted to, yourself, at least in the past).



No, I haven't--most certainly not whatever you conceive it to be and, in fact, I've addressed that with you several times before (to the point where I refused to discuss it with you any further given your tiresome obtusity if you recall.)


In fact "OSAS" (not cosidering apenea ad Scadinavian Airlines ...) is an acronym for Once Saved Always Saved, and aptly describes the Calvinist doctrine of the s.c. Perseverance of the Saints, or, in conclusion "eternal security", "unconditional assurance", and, again, "once saved, always saved". So, with your blah blah, you are simply talking nonsense.



And again, it's obvious you don't understand the doctrine, "idea", or any of the concepts you are "blah blah-ing" about above.  Moreover, it was so curious to see the confusion repeated almost verbatim in your link that a click on the same's "View Edits" tab reveals...guess who's (voluminous) "input" into the confusion?  Any relation?



Second, of course the alternatives I proposed are the ONLY possible ones. Otherwise, add your own:


EITHER become sinless; 


OR sin doesn't count;


OR (open for Adelphe's creative spin)



Apart from the being unable to respond to just what your notion of the "idea" is where you could conclude such a dichotomy, you obviously have a very different idea of what salvation entails.  First, where is the "requirement" (for whatever your notion is) to "become sinless"?  Second, "sin doesn't count" for or toward what, exactly?


On the contrary: risky (because there is NO "unconditional assurance") and humbling (because we have to repent each ad every time we fall).


MdS


Very interesting choice of terms "have to."


Anyway, first, if you understood anything at all of the "idea" in your many self-affirming, self-perpetuating errors you'd know the former isn't unqualified and the latter is indispensable.


Second, do you ever progress in your model or do you simply flounder around "falling and repenting" and subsequently being "restored" "each and every time" you "fall and repent"?  Exactly what's causing all this falling and then what's causing repentance?  If there is progression, what's the cause of that?

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

The remedy is worse than the illness: your explanation is even worse that if it was an omission.


It is a constant Christian exegetic, hermeneutic, and ultimately theological principle that the differences between corresponding passages of the Synoptics (and more in general the Four Canonical Gospels) can be harmonized.


This being premised, are you suggesting, perchance, that according to Mark's version (Mark 2:17), and also to Matthew's (Matt 9:13), both of which do't include the clause "to repentance", Jesus was calling the siners directly to salvation, skipping the necessary repentance and obedience?


If not, WTF is your finicky and fastidious self-correction supposed to mean?


MdS




You jumped into the middle of a discussion and ignored the context.  You may retrieve said context if you are interested at post #50.

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 11, 2012 5:48 PM EST

I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."

Flag SecondSonOfDavid January 11, 2012 9:35 PM EST

HfC, the thing to remember about OSAS is that, like many other concepts, it's a human concept which tries to answer difficult questions.  There is Scripture which assures believers that they cannot lose their salvation.  Obviously, though, there have been some really nasty people in History who spoke and acted in ways that make it very hard to imagine they were ever really believers, yet they held positions of leadership and influence in the Church.  Of course, there is that verse where Jesus warned about some who would cry 'Lord, Lord' and He will tell them He never knew them.  So, not to be cute, but I alwsy think of that concept as 


IF Saved, Always Saved


But all things considered, I don't really know what happens if someone accepts Christ but does evil afterwards.  I hope for mercy, because I have said and done many bad things after becoming Christian, and frankly I have never met a believer who did not sin, even after becoming a follower of Christ.  The differences are these, however:


First, a believer is really, truly sorry for doing wrong, and while they will make mistakes going forward, those will genuinely be slips and mistakes, not the intentional choice to be the person they used to be.  That is, they will work to be better in all ways.  A person who has not really accepted Christ is just looking for an excuse to avoid punishment and accountability.  


Second, a believer will think of others more than they did before.  New Christians often seem to think that means chasing down folks and coverting them for their own good, never realizing the true meaning of Evangelism (not for this thread, that topic, but it needs to be said).  One who does not truly believe will continue to care only for themselves and for their own pleasure and satisfaction.


Third, the believer will not only pray to God, but will earnestly listen with the heart to seek the LORD and His will.   That is not, by the way, the same thing as hearing voices, but learning to look and listen for God in all the ways He speaks to us.  The believer will grow in understanding and faith by listening for God through His spirit, which often can be heard in the voices of other people.  The non-believer will always talk from his opinion, and will demand his word be taken as truth.


That's how I see it, anyway.  I am, of course, at least partly wrong.  I come here to read and learn, that my understanding may grow.  But what I have written here comes form trying to practice the precepts I wrote here.


With flaws but with hope, faith, and - I certainly endeavor - charity.        

Flag davelaw40 January 11, 2012 10:55 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."




Born again Christians don't usually go around killing-
if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 11, 2012 11:18 PM EST

Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.


I thought it was obvious that the question was what could you possibly mean by "salvific."  Said another way, what does it mean to be "saved."


I thought it was obvious that you knew by yourself what "to save us from sin" means. But as you don't, then let me explain. Sin (which is NOT a change in human nature, BUT a change in human state, since "sin entered the world through one man" and spread to all) is a state of separation from God. Jesus, through his sacrificial death, having conquered sin, death and the devil, has, so to speak, created a bridge across the chasm between man and God.


[Adelphe]


[a] I didn't refer to OSAS as a doctrine, but as a "idea" [b] (which, BTW, you have amply resorted to, yourself, at least in the past). [c] In fact "OSAS" (not considering apnea ad Scandinavian Airlines ...) is an acronym for Once Saved Always Saved, and aptly describes the Calvinist doctrine of the s.c. Perseverance of the Saints, or, in conclusion "eternal security", "unconditional assurance", and, again, "once saved, always saved". So, with your blah blah, you are simply talking nonsense.

[a] Then if you know it's not a doctrine, obviously it was deliberately pejorative.


[b] No, I haven't--most certainly not whatever you conceive it to be and, in fact, I've addressed that with you several times before (to the point where I refused to discuss it with you any further given your tiresome obtusity if you recall.)


[c] And again, it's obvious you don't understand the doctrine, "idea", or any of the concepts you are "blah blah-ing" about above.  Moreover, it was so curious to see the confusion repeated almost verbatim in your link that a click on the same's "View Edits" tab reveals...guess who's (voluminous) "input" into the confusion?  Any relation?


[a] Why "pejorative", especially as you have used the acronym OSAS yourself, quite unproblematically, at least since Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008?


[b] "whatever you conceive it to be" ... "several times before" ... "if you recall": what a pathetic string of weasel-words ...


[c] If you had looked properly, and without prejudice, you would have noticed that, with my edit of 12:24, 22 January 2009, I simply created a link between the acronym OSAS and the "redirect": Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints (already existing since 2005). All this was later complicated by the necessity of "disambiguation" for the acronym OSAS. 


All above board, except for the paranoid ... er ... systematically suspicious ...


[Adelphe]


... of course the alternatives I proposed are the ONLY possible ones. Otherwise, add your own:

EITHER become sinless; 


OR sin doesn't count;


OR (open for Adelphe's creative spin)



Apart from the being unable to respond to just what your notion of the "idea" is where you could conclude such a dichotomy, you obviously have a very different idea of what salvation entails.  First, where is the "requirement" (for whatever your notion is) to "become sinless"?  Second, "sin doesn't count" for or toward what, exactly?


The laboriousness and clumsiness of your answer reveals all your difficulty. My dichotomy simply says that there is a relation between sin ad salvation, and that, AFAIAC, there is no doubt that:


1. There is/are sin/s that is/are unforgivable, "leading unto death". (hint: NO salvation)


2. No amount of faith will ever compensate for a lack of love for thy neighbor, which whatever you may delude yourself to the contrary, does NOT "flow spontaneously" from faith. Otherwise the entire chapter James 2 (and, in particular, James 2:14-26 - Faith and Works Together) would be entirely meaningless. (hint: NO salvation)


If you don't agree with the above, all you had/have to do is provide ... Adelphe's creative spin ...


[Adelphe]


On the contrary: [the Catholic doctrine of conditional salvation is] risky (because there is NO "unconditional assurance") and humbling (because we have to repent each ad every time we fall).

Very interesting choice of terms "have to."


Why? It is one of the conditions (IF ... IF ... IF ...)


[Adelphe] Anyway, first, if you understood anything at all of the "idea" in your many self-affirming, self-perpetuating errors you'd know the former isn't unqualified and the latter is indispensable.


The "former" ... what? The "latter" ... what?


[Adelphe] Second, do you ever progress in your model or do you simply flounder around "falling and repenting" and subsequently being "restored" "each and every time" you "fall and repent"?  Exactly what's causing all this falling and then what's causing repentance?  If there is progression, what's the cause of that?


Some people (those who are manifestly saints) do "progress", although, even for them some "dark night of the soul" is always possible. Progression is NOT an irreversible process.


What is "causing all this falling" is human frailty. 


What is causing repentance is our conscience, inspired by God's Holy Spirit.


What iis causing progression is human capacity to hold on to God's free grace.
(Free, but we have to do something with it, you know?)

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:12PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

The remedy is worse than the illness: your explanation is even worse than if it was an omission.


It is a constant Christian exegetic, hermeneutic, and ultimately theological principle that the differences between corresponding passages of the Synoptics (and more in general the Four Canonical Gospels) can be harmonized.


This being premised, are you suggesting, perchance, that according to Mark's version (Mark 2:17), and also to Matthew's (Matt 9:13), both of which don't include the clause "to repentance", Jesus was calling the sinners directly to salvation, skipping the necessary repentance and obedience?


If not, WTF is your finicky and fastidious self-correction supposed to mean?


You jumped into the middle of a discussion and ignored the context.  You may retrieve said context if you are interested at post #50.


Your difficulty is, once again, obvious and visible: you could (if you could ...) have answered my question here and now, without the obfuscation of the "resend" to a remote post, which has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 2:17, or Matt 9:13 or Luke 5:31-32, but ONLY with Ezekiel 18, and then with Luke 13:3.


Botched ... Embarassed


MdS

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 11, 2012 11:49 PM EST

SecondSon,


Thanks for a thoughtful answer. I agree that these are human concepts, but I regard all doctrine as of human origin. The issue itself, regardless of whether we think we can speak for God, is quite important to me.


People can do evil and remain convinced that they are "just doing the Lord's work." If they sincerely think that killing heretics (I would have been one of the first to be killed back in them days) is a good and pious thing, does that diminish its evil? Does it indicate mental illness? What if there are no other signs of mental illness in one who sincerely considers it his God-given job to kill heretics?


My answer is that evil is what it is, and the only way to believe that evil is good is deny the voice of God within oneself, screaming "Stop! This is evil!" The killer of heretics feels justified by selective and ideosyncratic interpretation of church doctrine and Bible passages; the tragic error is thinking that the word of God is found written in scripture and scripture-based doctrine, when it is really graven into our hearts and minds.

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 11, 2012 11:51 PM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."




Born again Christians don't usually go around killing-
if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.




As I said, DaveLaw, I was talking about centuries ago--that great and glorious era of Crusades and inquisitions.

Flag Adelphe January 12, 2012 8:41 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 9:35PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:

...


IF Saved, Always Saved


But all things considered, I don't really know what happens if someone accepts Christ but does evil afterwards.  I hope for mercy, because I have said and done many bad things after becoming Christian, and frankly I have never met a believer who did not sin, even after becoming a follower of Christ.  The differences are these, however:


First, a believer is really, truly sorry for doing wrong, and while they will make mistakes going forward, those will genuinely be slips and mistakes, not the intentional choice to be the person they used to be.  That is, they will work to be better in all ways.  A person who has not really accepted Christ is just looking for an excuse to avoid punishment and accountability.  


Second, a believer will think of others more than they did before.  New Christians often seem to think that means chasing down folks and coverting them for their own good, never realizing the true meaning of Evangelism (not for this thread, that topic, but it needs to be said).  One who does not truly believe will continue to care only for themselves and for their own pleasure and satisfaction.


Third, the believer will not only pray to God, but will earnestly listen with the heart to seek the LORD and His will.   That is not, by the way, the same thing as hearing voices, but learning to look and listen for God in all the ways He speaks to us.  The believer will grow in understanding and faith by listening for God through His spirit, which often can be heard in the voices of other people.  The non-believer will always talk from his opinion, and will demand his word be taken as truth.


That's how I see it, anyway.  I am, of course, at least partly wrong.  I come here to read and learn, that my understanding may grow.  But what I have written here comes form trying to practice the precepts I wrote here.


With flaws but with hope, faith, and - I certainly endeavor - charity.        




Beautifully said.

Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:


I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."




Born again Christians don't usually go around killing-
if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.




And this--so true.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 12, 2012 10:00 AM EST

Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."


Born again Christians don't usually go around killing- if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.


I trust you are aware of the gruesome case of John Calvin, who promised to his crony William Farel in Geneva ...


"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, February 13, 1546)


... then, while Servetus was being tried ...


“I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death, but I desire that he should be spared the cruelty of the punishment” (Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus arrest)


... finally, after Servetus' ashes had long been scattered by the wind ...


"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (Letter fo John Calving to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561)


Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS

Flag Adelphe January 12, 2012 10:04 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:18PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


I thought it was obvious that you knew by yourself what "to save us from sin" means. But as you don't, then let me explain.



Obviously, I know what it means to me--just as obviously, not to you.


Sin (which is NOT a change in human nature, BUT a change in human state, since "sin entered the world through one man" and spread to all) is a state of separation from God. Jesus, through his sacrificial death, having conquered sin, death and the devil, has, so to speak, created a bridge across the chasm between man and God.



This is confused with many gaping holes--the primary one being He "conquered sin, death, and the devil."  So?  What does that mean for us?  We obviously sin, we obviously die, we are obviously tempted by the devil.  Where is the "saving" here?


[a] Why "pejorative", especially as you have used the acronym OSAS yourself, quite unproblematically, at least since Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008?



You know, I simply must ask:  are you intentionally sleazy or does it just come naturally? 


First, I quoted Matt's post and it was Matt who "used the acronym OSAS, quite unproblematically", not me.


Second, and more importantly, my very first post on the thread to which it refers:


"btw, "Once Saved Always Saved" (rather pejorative, as I'm sure you know ;-) ) is formally known as the doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints."

It really should be, "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved." Or, better, "If Saved Always Saved."


So you, yourself, have just revealed what I've already said--you have absolutely zero excuse for continuing with your pejoratives and ignorant or intentional perversions of the doctrine for the past 4 years and counting.




[b] "whatever you conceive it to be" ... "several times before" ... "if you recall": what a pathetic string of weasel-words ...



You call it "a pathetic string of weasel-words."  I call it "your pathetic Alzheimer's." 



[c] If you had looked properly, and without prejudice, you would have noticed that, with my edit of 12:24, 22 January 2009, I simply created a link between the acronym OSAS and the "redirect": Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints (already existing since 2005). All this was later complicated by the necessity of "disambiguation" for the acronym OSAS.



First, "OSAS" was existing since 2005 for exactly the reason it does exist which a prior person helpfully noted and which you "corrected" (totally in error, I might add) and subsequently mucked up: it's an acronym for "obstructive sleep apnea syndrome."


Second and subsequently, the only "disambiguation" required was due to your erroneous edits.



All above board, except for the paranoid ... er ... systematically suspicious ...



Who is "paranoid" or "systematically suspicious"?  It was you who confirmed that when there are blatant pejoratives regarding Christianity on wikipedia, you, in part, are responsible for them.  I really could give a shit what you do there.  Enjoy your bigotry in good health--who am I to deprive you of it?


The laboriousness and clumsiness of your answer reveals all your difficulty.



The laboriousness and clumsiness is all in your interpretation.


My dichotomy simply says that there is a relation between sin ad salvation, and that, AFAIAC, there is no doubt that:


1. There is/are sin/s that is/are unforgivable, "leading unto death". (hint: NO salvation)



And they are?



2. No amount of faith will ever compensate for a lack of love for thy neighbor, which whatever you may delude yourself to the contrary, does NOT "flow spontaneously" from faith. Otherwise the entire chapter James 2 (and, in particular, James 2:14-26 - Faith and Works Together) would be entirely meaningless. (hint: NO salvation)


If you don't agree with the above, all you had/have to do is provide ... Adelphe's creative spin ...



Again, your lack of understanding of James 2 is entirely your own.


Why? It is one of the conditions (IF ... IF ... IF ...)



Very interesting choice of terms "conditions."


It's just gets more and more interesting.


The "former" ... what? The "latter" ... what?



Obviously your two subjects--"unconditional assurance" and "repent[ance]".


[btw, I wouldn't call any version of your concepts surrounding salvation "the Catholic doctrine."]


Some people (those who are manifestly saints) do "progress", although, even for them some "dark night of the soul" is always possible. Progression is NOT an irreversible process.



LOL!!!


I can't even comment here without tons more information.


Let's start with "progression."  Exactly what is progressing and then, where, why, when, and how?


Then (and only then) can we attempt to untangle what the lunacy of "reversible" "progression" might mean.



What is "causing all this falling" is human frailty.



How entirely, uninformatively...sanitized.  What's frail?  Why?



What is causing repentance is our conscience, inspired by God's Holy Spirit.



Don't you have a conscience before your fall?  Why doesn't it trouble you then?



What iis causing progression is human capacity to hold on to God's free grace.
(Free, but we have to do something with it, you know?)



What, exactly, are you getting from that grace, how does it help you progress, and what do you "do" with it?


I know you are seriously out of your comfort zone when you provide such trite, insipid, staccato responses as those above.


Your difficulty is, once again, obvious and visible: you could (if you could ...) have answered my question here and now, without the obfuscation of the "resend" to a remote post, which has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 2:17, or Matt 9:13 or Luke 5:31-32, but ONLY with Ezekiel 18, and then with Luke 13:3.


Botched ...


MdS




I have no "difficulty"--instead, I have no interest in bringing you up to speed on a discussion that occured and concluded over 50 posts ago.


Once again, you've entirely ignored (or are not capable of grasping) the context and trajectory of that discussion.


Speak for yourself re "botched."

Flag Adelphe January 12, 2012 10:32 AM EST

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


...Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS




Is it just murder you need to concern yourself with? 


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."


btw, when does any of this start coming into play?


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...Love thy neighbor



Do you think that goes for whomever you decide deserves it or whenever you feel like it?


“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


bbtw, how do you know John Calvin was "unrepentant"?


Will you now put your money where your mouth is?  Or...


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.



...condemn yourself with your own words?


"for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


bbbtw, where's the murderous Moses at the moment?  Last I knew, he was talking with Christ at His Transfiguration.

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 12, 2012 10:52 AM EST

What kind of answer is that? Matthew 5:22 (on murder but also anger) and also 5:27-28 (on adultery but also lust) is certainly not meant to equate the act with the thought. To believe otherwise is to take the position that we are condemned for our thoughts, which means everyone is condemned (so far, I assume you are nodding in agreement), which means that God condemns us because we are imperfect... and if we are imperfect, is that our fault or our creator's fault? Oh, God created us perfect, but we chose to sin? That's what I was told back when I went to churches. It didn't make sense then and it still does not. If we were created perfect, we would not choose to sin (whatever that infinitely pliable and slippery term may mean); because to choose something bad is perverse, and perversion in incompatible with perfection. Ergo, the very act of choosing to do something bad is evidence of a pre-existing state of imperfection.


Sp what could Jesus have meant? I'm sure that I am essentially alone in my view that he was saying that in the moments when we are consumed by anger, we are spiritually blocking out the light of God within ourselves--as it were, dead for that moment. And we are denying the aliveness of the target of our rage by turning that person into an object against which we direct our wrath. Likewise, those moments when we are consumed by lust. Such moments are part of the human condition, and Jesus did not hate humanity; he was warning us not to let ourselves be consumed by such feelings.


In short, there IS a difference between feeling anger and committing murder. To equate the two is moral incoherence.

Flag Miguel_de_servet January 12, 2012 5:42 PM EST

Adelphe


Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:04AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 11:18PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

I thought it was obvious that you knew by yourself what "to save us from sin" means. But as you don't, then let me explain.


Obviously, I know what it means to me--just as obviously, not to you.


That is why it was obviously necessary to make foolproof what I meant, which is precisely what I did. Obviously ...


[Adelphe]


Sin (which is NOT a change in human nature, BUT a change in human state, since "sin entered the world through one man" and spread to all) is a state of separation from God. Jesus, through his sacrificial death, having conquered sin, death and the devil, has, so to speak, created a bridge across the chasm between man and God.

This is confused with many gaping holes--the primary one being He "conquered sin, death, and the devil."  So?  What does that mean for us?  We obviously sin, we obviously die, we are obviously tempted by the devil.  Where is the "saving" here?


No "confusion" and no "holes", not even small.


That Jesus, with his sacrificial death, "conquered sin, death, and the devil" is common Christian theology, and the fact that we still die, still sin and are still tempted by the devil does NOT count as a confutation of the efficacy of what Jesus did. Christians, true Christians accept through faith that Jesus, with his crucifixion, death ad resurrection, has irreversibly conquered  a "stronghold", the Golgotha, has conjoined again God and humans. This is what his atonement (at-one-ment) is about: NOT some commercial-legalistic "substitution", NOR (God forbid) some penal "satisfaction".


[Adelphe]


Why "pejorative", especially as you have used the acronym OSAS yourself, quite unproblematically, at least since Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008?

... First, I quoted Matt's post and it was Matt who "used the acronym OSAS, quite unproblematically", not me.


Second, and more importantly, my very first post on the thread to which it refers:


"btw, "Once Saved Always Saved" (rather pejorative, as I'm sure you know ;-) ) is formally known as the doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints."

It really should be, "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved." Or, better, "If Saved Always Saved."


So you, yourself, have just revealed what I've already said--you have absolutely zero excuse for continuing with your pejoratives and ignorant or intentional perversions of the doctrine for the past 4 years and counting.


First, this is what you wrote:


Matt16-18 wrote:
I think this topic deserves its own thread. I will start one called:

OSAS & Apostasy


I see you've done that.  I will be there directly! [Adelphe's post #73 of thread "Heresy and Invincible Ignorance", May 24, 2008]


I see no trace whatsoever of "problematic", in the reply that you gave to Matt16-18 ...


Second, that you insist calling "Once Saved Always Saved" "pejorative" of the expression "perseverance of the saints" reveals a problem which is entirely yours, because the historical "perseverance of the saints", the more colloquial "Once Saved Always Saved" and also Free Grace theology are just slight variants of the same idea, which ultimately is the sola fide.


Even more finicky are the alleged differences between "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Once Saved Always Saved, IF Saved" or "If Saved Always Saved". The former is simply redundant, the latter is 100% equivalent, because "once", in the phrase is a conjunction that includes ALL the meanings of "as soon as; if ever; when".


“Miss A., when she was 27, had a sudden conversion to Jesus as her personal saviour. From that moment she is saved and cannot lose her salvation evermore.”


[Adelphe]


"whatever you conceive it to be" ... "several times before" ... "if you recall": what a pathetic string of weasel-words ...

You call it "a pathetic string of weasel-words."  I call it "your pathetic Alzheimer's."


But I remember perfectly all your pathetic arguments also, and know that they are the reason for your vagueness ...


[Adelphe]


If you had looked properly, and without prejudice, you would have noticed that, with my edit of 12:24, 22 January 2009, I simply created a link between the acronym OSAS and the "redirect": Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints (already existing since 2005). All this was later complicated by the necessity of "disambiguation" for the acronym OSAS.

First, "OSAS" was existing since 2005 for exactly the reason it does exist which a prior person helpfully noted and which you "corrected" (totally in error, I might add) and subsequently mucked up: it's an acronym for "obstructive sleep apnea syndrome."


Second and subsequently, the only "disambiguation" required was due to your erroneous edits.


First, you botched it once again: it was the "redirect", Once saved, always saved => Perseverance of the saints that was already existing since 2005): I simply added the acronym that, as anybody (except for you) knows perfectly well, is certainly more commonly associated to "Once Saved Always Saved" than either "Obstructive Sleep Apnea Syndrome" or "Overseas Scandinavian Airlines System"! LOL!


Second, see above.


[Adelphe]


My dichotomy [EITHER become sinless OR sin doesn't count] simply says that there is a relation between sin ad salvation, and that, AFAIAC, there is no doubt that:

1. There is/are sin/s that is/are unforgivable, "leading unto death". (hint: NO salvation)And they are?


Essentially, unrepentant disobedience to God and lack of love for neighbor.


[Adelphe]


2. No amount of faith will ever compensate for a lack of love for thy neighbor, which whatever you may delude yourself to the contrary, does NOT "flow spontaneously" from faith. Otherwise the entire chapter James 2 (and, in particular, James 2:14-26 - Faith and Works Together) would be entirely meaningless. (hint: NO salvation)

If you don't agree with the above, all you had/have to do is provide ... Adelphe's creative spin ...



Again, your lack of understanding of James is entirely your own.


It is entirely obvious that you see James' Faith AND Works through your Polarizing Sola Fide Specs©®™


[Adelphe]


Why? It is one of the conditions (IF ... IF ... IF ...)

Very interesting choice of terms "conditions."


It's just gets more and more interesting.


Really? Why? Do you take issue with those three IF ... IF ... IF ...? Or would you use a term more appropriate than "conditions" to describe them? Or what?


[Adelphe]


The "former" ... what [isn't unqualified]? The "latter" ... what [is indispensable]?

Obviously your two subjects--"unconditional assurance" and "repent[ance]".


Coming out of your smoky obfuscations:


What does it mean that "unconditional assurance" "isn't unqualified"?


Where does the doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" explicitly affirms that "repentance is indispensable"?


[Adelphe] [btw, I wouldn't call any version of your concepts surrounding salvation "the Catholic doctrine."]


I challenge you to prove that what I say for Faith and Works and against "unconditional assurance" is not in line with the Catholic doctrine ...


[Adelphe]


Some people (those who are manifestly saints) do "progress", although, even for them some "dark night of the soul" is always possible. Progression is NOT an irreversible process.

I can't even comment here without tons more information.


Let's start with "progression."  Exactly what is progressing and then, where, why, when, and how?


Then (and only then) can we attempt to untangle what the lunacy of "reversible" "progression" might mean.


You asked "do you ever progress in your model?". I obviously assumed that you knew what you meant by the words you used ...


Reversible, anyway, means that it is, to use Paul's image, like a sport:  you are never sure that you have won until the finishing line.


[Adelphe]


What is "causing all this falling" is human frailty.

How entirely, uninformatively...sanitized.  What's frail?  Why?


"Sanitized"? What an odd word to use! How totally un-human of you to need explanations about human frailty ...


[Adelphe]


What is causing repentance is our conscience, inspired by God's Holy Spirit.

Don't you have a conscience before your fall?  Why doesn't it trouble you then?


Oh but it does, it does ... 


The problem is always our frailty, our weakness ... human, all to human ...


[Adelphe]


What is causing progression is human capacity to hold on to God's free grace.
(Free, but we have to do something with it, you know?)

What, exactly, are you getting from that grace, how does it help you progress, and what do you "do" with it?


I know you are seriously out of your comfort zone when you provide such trite, insipid, staccato responses as those above.


I am perfectly comfortable with my answers, for the simply reason that I simply and sincerely believe that what I say is at the core of the Christian message. But I seriously doubt that even the great Augustine could give detailed answers to your questions.


What is certainly NOT the case is that God's grace is some sort of "vaccine" that would work irresistibly in us.


[Adelphe]


Your difficulty is, once again, obvious and visible: you could (if you could ...) have answered my question ...

["... are you suggesting, perchance, that according to Mark's version (Mark 2:17), and also to Matthew's (Matt 9:13), both of which don't include the clause "to repentance", Jesus was calling the sinners directly to salvation, skipping the necessary repentance and obedience? "] [#]


... here and now, without the obfuscation of the "resend" to a remote post, which has absolutely nothing to do with Mark 2:17, or Matt 9:13 or Luke 5:31-32, but ONLY with Ezekiel 18, and then with Luke 13:3.



I have no "difficulty" --instead, I have no interest in bringing you up to speed on a discussion that occurred and concluded over 50 posts ago.


Once again, you've entirely ignored (or are not capable of grasping) the context and trajectory of that discussion.


Yours is disgraceful obfuscation and bluff. Why don't you simply answer my question [#], that you've NEVER confronted before, in any context and with anyone?


Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:32AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

...Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


Is it just murder you need to concern yourself with?


No. Why? My comment was perfectly appropriate, in response to Dave's post ... 


[Adelphe] “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."


btw, when does any of this start coming into play?


"Coming into play"? I have no idea what your question is supposed to mean.


[Adelphe]


...Love thy neighbor [from MdS' post #106]

Do you think that goes for whomever you decide deserves it or whenever you feel like it?


[quotation of Matt 5:43-48]


Love, sometimes, means correcting, and cannot be separated from truth.


[Adelphe]bbtw, how do you know John Calvin was "unrepentant"?


Will you now put your money where your mouth is?


Well, at least until 1561 John Calvin was obviously unrepentant, and he died in 1564, so, maybe he repented in those 2-3 years ...


... lets hope so for the sake of his soul ...


... although there is no evidence ...


[Adelphe]Or...


...

IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved. [from MdS' post #106]



...condemn yourself with your own words?


"for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Again, saying the truth about John Calvin is NOT against love. 


Jesus had no hesitation with the hypocrites (Matt 23:1-36) ...


[Adelphe]bbbtw, where's the murderous Moses at the moment?  Last I knew, he was talking with Christ at His Transfiguration.


Presumably God has judged him favourably, on the whole.


What about the murderous Elijah and the 400 prophets of Baal?


MdS

Flag lope January 13, 2012 10:18 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 4:23PM, Adelphe wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:32PM, lope wrote:


I see no homonization here.



Likewise, I'm sure...


Just ignoring the teachings about the wicked will die and not live and the righteous will live and not die, both in the Old and New Testament.  I think God will recreate us as many times as needed to achieve the bottom line--the righteous shall live and not die.  Jesus taught clearly in Matt 25:31 and following for example that our actions have a connection to being gifted with eternal life.  You are determined to deny that connection.  There is no harmony going on that I can see.




Exactly--they do.


You've just got them in the wrong order.





It seems to be the same order Ezekiel and Jesus has them--turn from wickedness to righteousnes then hope for eternal life--not promised before the turning.  Jesus said if you do not turn you perish.  Luke 13:3

Flag davelaw40 January 13, 2012 10:26 AM EST

Jan 12, 2012 -- 10:00AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:55PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:48PM, Heretic_for_Christ wrote:

I have a serious question about "Once saved, always saved."


In past centuries, Christian clergy tortured and killed countless people whose crime was having the wrong kind of belief. As Christians before they did these things, they were, presumably, saved. Were they still saved after they committed these atrocities, continued committing them, and finally died feeling that they had done well in committing them?


I am asking this seriously, because if the answer is Yes, then it seems to me that God's attitude must be EITHER "Yeah, he's a sonofabitch, but he's my sonofabitch" OR "Hey, boys will be boys."


Born again Christians don't usually go around killing- if they are killing-they prolly ain't saved-look to the ones being killed as most likely being saved.


I trust you are aware of the gruesome case of John Calvin, who promised to his crony William Farel in Geneva ...


"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, February 13, 1546)


... then, while Servetus was being tried ...


“I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death, but I desire that he should be spared the cruelty of the punishment” (Letter of John Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus arrest)


... finally, after Servetus' ashes had long been scattered by the wind ...


"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (Letter fo John Calving to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561)


Scheming, murderous, hypocritical, unrepentant: this was John Calvin, the author of the doctrine of the the "Perseverance of the Saints" ...


MdS





Perserverence of the saints and Eternal security are not the same doctrine-
they just achieve the same result



Calvin persecuted my Anabaptist ancestors as well

Flag 57 January 13, 2012 10:48 AM EST

Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


Which means what, exactly?


It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.






You misquoted the scripture.  You forgot the words "ALL".... All your heart, all your mind....do you really think you can do that?

Flag Rgurley4 January 13, 2012 11:20 AM EST

ETERNAL SECURITY...aka...Can a true Christ-follower lose "salvation"?


BACK T0 BASICS...


I believe the true "born again from above" Christ-follower enjoys salvation that is ETERNALLY SECURE.


On the FAITH vs WORKS debate, SEE:


1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS


PROGRESSIVE salvation ...


I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed
I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....and
I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens and Earth in Revelations


Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS to believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40


Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...."
Romans 8: 35-39


 John 10...Jesus the God-Man holds you in His HAND...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!


The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30


NO ONE has EVER undone these spiritual works!


If GOOD WORKS do not follow salvation, then perhaps there was no true salvation  in the first place! ...saved by Grace through Spirit-led Faith!

Flag Heretic_for_Christ January 13, 2012 11:26 AM EST

Cheap grace. Anyone can cry "Lord! Lord!"

Flag lope January 13, 2012 12:09 PM EST

Jan 13, 2012 -- 10:48AM, 57 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


Which means what, exactly?


It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.






You misquoted the scripture.  You forgot the words "ALL".... All your heart, all your mind....do you really think you can do that?




Jesus said be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.  He knew you could not do that, but that does not mean you should not try.  It was a goal for us to attempt to achieve.  Grace is for those who try and cannot.  Death is for those who do not try.

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 13, 2012 1:45 PM EST

How did I end up on C2C debate?

Flag davelaw40 January 13, 2012 2:00 PM EST

everytime I try to move threads like these to C2C-I get slapped down by mgt

Flag 57 January 13, 2012 2:32 PM EST

Jan 13, 2012 -- 12:09PM, lope wrote:


Jan 13, 2012 -- 10:48AM, 57 wrote:


Jan 11, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Adelphe


Jan 11, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Adelphe wrote:

Jan 11, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:

Nobody denies that the sacrifice of Christ is salvific.


Which means what, exactly?


It means that ...


IF we believe that God sent his Son to save us from sin;


IF we sincerely repent;


IF we obey God's commandments (essentially "Love thy God & Love thy neighbor");


... we will be saved.






You misquoted the scripture.  You forgot the words "ALL".... All your heart, all your mind....do you really think you can do that?




Jesus said be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.  He knew you could not do that, but that does not mean you should not try.  It was a goal for us to attempt to achieve.  Grace is for those who try and cannot.  Death is for those who do not try.




I don't disagree....stop acting like it's a requirement 

Flag allthegoodnamesweretaken January 13, 2012 3:18 PM EST

Jan 13, 2012 -- 2:00PM, davelaw40 wrote:


everytime I try to move threads like these to C2C-I get slapped down by mgt





I think that says something in and of itself. 



And here I was just thinking that this was probably because you don't have other mods here that aren't Christian, so you probably just didn't see it.  There are several threads that are only about Christian ideals that IMO have no place on this board, and make the atmosphere seem unwelcoming to those not of the Christian belief structure.  I know if I was a newbie coming to this site, and I read this thread and others like it, I wouldn't even bother trying to post here. 

Flag davelaw40 January 13, 2012 5:01 PM EST

This discussion is being moved to Christian 2 Christian debate-it has become an in house discussion

Flag dblad January 15, 2012 5:51 PM EST

Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:


John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
How is it possible to lose ones salvation?




Luke 8:11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
   


Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
 


2 Tim. 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness,...


2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g]">[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”



 

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer January 15, 2012 7:50 PM EST

I don't mind it being here, dave...I appreciate the heads-up.  I sometimes lose track of which threads started here and which were moved, so I appreciate the nudge!

Flag Hatman January 15, 2012 11:10 PM EST
Well, since Christ said that "ONLY he who ENDURES TO THE END will be saved," and i trust Him over EVERY other, the ONLY ones who can claim, honestly and truthfully, that they are saved NOW is those who HAVE "endured to the end" or have had a personal visit from the King of kings to verify such a status...which none worthy of their salt would dare brag about, in any case.

All others would be either ignorant, misled, deceived---or liars, disobedient children who think that Christ did not say what He meant and mean what He said.

Warmest regards-

Hatman
Flag Rgurley4 January 16, 2012 2:47 PM EST

All Christ-followers must "...endure to the end..." BEFORE being "saved"!?!


All others would be either:
ignorant,
 misled,
deceived
liars,
disobedient children


...who think that Christ did not say what He meant and mean what He said.


...."The Bible" is not the "Word of God"....


I am a Christ-follower who is none of your unkind and mistaken characterizations....
which are based on ONE verse taken out of context....from "The Bible"....
and which doctrine you persist in espousing....despite contrary Scripture.


Here's what Jesus the Christ and followers "said" about salvation and thereafter following Him:...in context!


There are ~200 places in the Bible that state/imply that GRACE through FAITH in Jesus the God-Man is ALL that is required for salvation from spiritual eternal DEATH into spiritual ETERNAL LIFE.



John 17 (NASB...JESUS: The High Priestly Prayer...BELIEF in the TRI-UNE God ONLY!
 1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
“Father, the hour has come;
glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2
even as You (Father) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh,
that to all (believers) whom You (Father) have given Him (Jesus),
He (Jesus) MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
3 This IS ETERNAL LIFE that they may KNOW (believe in) You, the only true God,
and (believe in) Jesus (the) Christ whom You (Father) have sent.
20 “I do (Jesus) not ask on behalf of these (disciples present) alone,
but for those also who BELIEVE in Me through their word (teaching gospel);
21 that they may all be one;
even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You,
that they also may be in Us,
so that the world may BELIEVE that You sent Me.


1 John 5 (NASB)...John: This Is Written That You May Know that Jesus is ETERNAL LIFE
20 And we know that the Son of God has come,
and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true,
in His Son Jesus (the) Christ.
This is the TRUE GOD and ETERNAL LIFE.


 2 Timothy 3 (NASB)...salvation though FAITH....Scripture is SPIRIT-inspired
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings (Scriptures)
which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to
SALVATION THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired (BREATH UPON) by God and profitable
for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God (BELIEVER) may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Flag Hatman January 16, 2012 9:20 PM EST
So you have chosen not to believe Christ, it seems, perhaps preferring a comfortable lie to an uncomfortable truth; the consequences of your choice will be borne by you...and it's possible that the blood of any who are taken in by your deceptions, who choose to believe YOU(or Paul or anyone else) over Christ Himself---may also be required of you.

Your claim that His words are "taken out of context" is specious, at best---a pernicious, contemptible lie to comfort someone's hypocrisy, at worst...and retreating to false comfort of the words of Paul will not help you, either, for salvation is not in Paul.

You really only have two choices, here: believe Him, or not.  The latter course involves seeking any excuse to not believe and obey Him over all others.

That you don't LIKE the choices makes them no less true, and pretending that He did not say or did not mean what He said is simple self-deception, a course of action that i do my utmost to dissuade people from following, as even He did, e.g. "Why do you call Me 'Lord, lord', and do not do what I tell you?".

Warmest regards-

Hatman
Flag Rgurley4 January 17, 2012 1:05 AM EST

Here's how things worked in my life...in this ORDER...supported by Scripture:


1. Drawn by God the Holy Spirit to the TRI-UNE GOD


2. Saved by unmerited Grace through Spirit-led Faith / BELIEF...ONLY...Jesus SAVES!


3. Indwelt by God the Holy Spirit to be guided and grow into "good works".


4. As a saved believer, Jesus the God-man promises Forgiveness of Sins if I am outside the will of God.


5. The TRI-UNE GOD promises spiritual strength and wisdom to "endure" the tests of the world.


6. Jesus the Christ commands us to OBEY by Loving God + Loving Neighbor as self...Love one another as He loved us...following His example, precepts, and commands are not burdensome if the believer allows God the Holy Spirit to control.


TRY:



John 15 (NASB)....Jesus Is the Vine—His Followers Are The Branches


7. I am a joyful believer because I am allowed to "abide" in Jesus the Christ. He will prune me and throw away the clippings so that I may produce "spiritual" good fruit...a living branch!


8. My POSITION: I am "seated" spiritually in heaven because Christ did it all.


9. My PRACTICE: I receive spiritual power to "endure".


Flag Hatman January 17, 2012 2:14 AM EST
There is really only one question to answer:

Did Christ say "Only he who endures to the end will be saved," yes or no?

Well, perhaps a follow-up question, too:

Did He mean what He said?

Warmest regards-

Hatman
Flag Eliascomes January 17, 2012 9:51 AM EST

Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:



John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?



You can't lose salvation. Salvation is a feeling of relief after overcoming the impossible. And the only way to overcoming the impossible is through God.


Jonah 2:9 But I, with shouts of grateful praise,  will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good.  I will say, ‘Salvation comes from the LORD.’”






Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Flag Rgurley4 January 17, 2012 11:37 AM EST

Hatman's Doctrine: a believer must "endure to the end" to be saved.


What Jesus said in context:


Matthew 24 (NASB"   Jesus:... Signs: End of Church Age ...the TRIBULATION and GREAT TRIBULATION...4-28 (NASB)....The SECOND COMING....


3...(Disciples:)...what will be the sign(s) of your (SECOND) coming and of the end of the (CHURCH) age?"...


12  Because of the increase of wickedness, the love (OBEDIENCE to Jesus) of most will grow cold,
13  but he (the BELIEVER surviving in the TRIBULATION) who stands firm (in SPIRIT GUIDED faith) to the end (of the Tribulation) will be saved ( from APOSTASY)...( from WORSE and DEATH...see v. 22)
>>>>>"STANDING FIRM" is NOT a condition of SALVATION<<<<<
14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end (of the first half of the Tribulation) will come(...begin GREAT TRIBULATION...last 3.5 years)
 

Flag Beautiful_Dreamer January 17, 2012 7:24 PM EST

Jan 13, 2012 -- 3:18PM, allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:


Jan 13, 2012 -- 2:00PM, davelaw40 wrote:


everytime I try to move threads like these to C2C-I get slapped down by mgt





I think that says something in and of itself. 



And here I was just thinking that this was probably because you don't have other mods here that aren't Christian, so you probably just didn't see it.  There are several threads that are only about Christian ideals that IMO have no place on this board, and make the atmosphere seem unwelcoming to those not of the Christian belief structure.  I know if I was a newbie coming to this site, and I read this thread and others like it, I wouldn't even bother trying to post here. 




Again, I don't mind a thread being moved to C2CD...I just want to *know* that it was moved so I have some sort of idea what to do with it. I've moved threads from 'church of one' people who think the entire Christian religion/Bible is wrong  or being practiced the wrong way (which really amounts to the same thing*) back to your board because I did not know where it came from. If I had, I would have either kept it or moved it to a different board. Just a simple 'this thread was moved from...' works fine for me...I don't think that's too much to ask...I can't speak for other mods or admins, though.



*I say this because I've seen people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah but that's it-they don't care about anything else that has been taught by the faith. When they start preaching that no Christian church has ever gotten anything right, that looks like they are attacking the faith in general. Correct me if I am wrong? Perhaps I should have asked one of you what you thought first, if so I'm sorry.

Flag Hatman January 17, 2012 9:54 PM EST
So, yes or no answers are something you do not deign to give, i see, even with an explanation of your choice afterwards.  i point out what Christ says, exactly, and you attempt to besmirch, demean, debase, and hold me up to ridicule because i quote the Master's words, and you disingenuously call them "Hatman's doctrine."  Good luck with that one, bub!  Oh, and thanks for securing my place in Heaven...

i sometimes find it sad, sometimes wistfully humorous, how many toss His words behind them as soon they prove inconvenient to what they want to do, believe, say---or be.  For example, the Catholics and EO seem to take positive delight in honoring their "tradition" of calling putative spiritual superiors "Father," despite Christ's clear prohibition otherwise, or those who claim that Matthew 25 is inapplicable to everyday life because it refers(in "context") to the final judgment.

Or to reference another apparent sticking point, let me briefly make an edit to a passage, and ask you what you think:

"In the Beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.  All things came into being through the Bible, and without the Bible was nothing made that was made."

Is this an accurate paraphrase of John 1:1 et seq., and if not, why not?

Warmest regards-

Hatman
Flag Rgurley4 January 18, 2012 1:41 AM EST

Hatman: a few forced questions for you. I answered yours with Bible interpretation.


As a Christ-follower, is your spirit saved from eternal separation from God?


If so, how so?


If not, why not?


As a Christ-follower, my salvation is both PROGRESSIVE and SECURE. It started with:


SAVING FAITH:


John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who received him,
to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God...
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, (Jesus)
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)
Paul and Silas and their jailer...He then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved
—you and your household."


1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous (Jesus) for the unrighteous (us),
to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)
For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through (Spirit-led) FAITH—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Flag Rgurley4 January 18, 2012 1:46 AM EST

Do You Believe We Can Lose Our Salvation? If So, Why?



community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...

Flag Dostojevsky January 19, 2012 2:58 AM EST

"Do You Believe We Can Lose Our Salvation? If So, Why?"


You fall in love till-death-do-us-part, only to part long before physical death.


The love which appeared so real had died.


Consciously choosing Christ Jesus and to walk in His ways makes us new creation. The bond is deeper than that on the natural level as it is conjunction of our finite with the infinite of God.


To lose this bond you would have to want to lose it. It would be like gold wanting to become clay. This is the choice man alone can make.

Flag CometintheSky March 22, 2012 4:12 AM EDT

Paraphrastic speaking regarding John 3:16, the seceond half of the verse teaches that those who believe in Christ would not perish and they will (present tense) have eternal (present tense) life. Therfore, it would stand to reason that according to this teaching it is a direct promise from Christ, Himself, which is due to the fact that He had stated His own teaching to those who believe in Him in order for them to make certain that they would never lose his/her eternal salvation for any reason.


The N.T., paraphrastic speaking, also teaches as a direct promise from Christ, that He would not leave believers and that He would be with the believers all of the time. Since that is the case, the believers would be with Christ forever throughout eternity. 


The Bible teaches in the N.T., paraphrastic speaking, that those who believe in Him (the Father) that had sent Christ would have (present tense) everlasting life. No doubt, this is a direct promise from God, which means that believers will have eternal life with God.


Paraphrastic speaking, the Bible also teaches that believers (backsliders are included due to that they are eternally saved) that are in the hands of the Father and of the Son, all of the believers would not be snatched out of the Father's hand and the Son's hand, which is a direct promise. God is so powerful that through His power, He keeps all of the believers to stay put, therefore, in the literal sense, any outside forces that are not in the hands of the Father and the hand of the Son, do not have the power to snatch believers out of the hands of the Father and Son. This of course also means that even the combined power of all of the believers are powerless to snatch themselves from the hands of the Father and of the Son, as well.


Regarding the Holy Spirit, paraphrastic speaking, the Bible teaches that the Spirit would indwell believers always, which is a present tense direct promise. Since that is the literal case, it would stand to reason that the Spirit would never leave believers for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, all of the believers would have (present tense) eternal life and they would always be with Christ throughout eternity.


Paraphrastic speaking, the Father had given all believers to Christ, and according to Christ, He would not lose (present tense) any believers whatsoever...not even one believer, as well. This teaching of the Bible is a literal present tense direct promise. Since that is the case, all of the believers will always have forever (present tense) eternal life/salvation through eternity with Christ.  

Flag smcisaac March 22, 2012 11:55 AM EDT

Just because you believe you are saved doesn't mean you actually are.  Maybe backsliders were never really elected to begin with.


Even if you are in fact among the elect, that doesn't mean you get to skip the process of sanctification.  Maybe backsliders are just some of the elect who are walking down a particularly bumpy road. 


And maybe the process of sanctification isn't even completed in this lifetime, at least for a lot of people.  Maybe it continues after death.  Maybe there are a lot of members of the elect whom you wouldn't be able to recognize from their beliefs or behavior in this lifetime. 


Maybe the Atonement even elected everybody.

Flag Rgurley4 March 22, 2012 4:39 PM EDT

I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed



I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....and


 
I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens and Earth in Revelations


1. POSITION changes at salvation ...from outsider to full "son" of God
 Hebrews 10:10-14 
 1 Corinthians 6:11
2. PRACTICE changes, and there is spiritual growth toward maturity as followers imitate the model of perfection
 1 Peter 1:6-7, 13-16
3. PRESENCE and POWER of sin in the believer's life disappears totally in time eternal
 Revelations: 21-22


Substitution = "for" = in place of + for the benefit of
 Matthew 20:28
 Galatians 3:13
 1 Peter 3:18 
 2 Corinthians 5:21
Atonement = "at-one ment" with God through the required SACRIFICE for SIN ...once ...FOR... all
 Hebrews 7:27  
 Hebrews 9:26-28
 Hebrews 10:10-14
 1 Peter 3:18
Redemption - purchased out of the market place / pawn shop of sin and freed by paying  a price
 1 Corinthians 1:30
 Hebrews 9:12
 1 Timothy 2:5-6
 Titus 2:11-14
Reconciliation - to change from the status of alienation to the status of family
 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 
 Hebrews 2:17
Adoption - receiving new status by being taken from a family not your own into a new family...
 from outsider to full privileges of "son"
 Isaiah 62:2
 Romans 8:12-17
 Galatians 4:1-5
Propitiation - appease or satisfy a God angry with sin
 Mark 3:29
 Mark 14:21
 Romans 1:18
 Ephesians 5:6
 Romans 3:21-26.
 1 John 2:1-2
Justification - "just-if -i -had never sinned"~ = forgiveness of sins?
    legal term : not guilty, acquitted, no sentence, no condemnation, law has been perfectly been satisfied, fine paid.
 Luke 24:47 
 Acts 10:43
 1 John 2:12 
 Acts 13:39 
 Romans 3:21-26
 Romans 5:1,9
 Romans 10:10 
 1 Corinthians 6:11
 Galatians 2:16-17
 Galatians 3:11,24
 Titus 3:7
 James 2:21-26.
 1 John 1:8-10


Santified / Sanctification: - "to set apart" : the goats become sheep and then slowly become "saintly" and "holy" and more complete


 

Flag Hatman March 24, 2012 1:38 AM EDT
Ok, i went through 11.5 pages of this before i couldn't stand it no more:

Show of hands!  Who dares declare themselves "saved" right now, despite Christ's clear and unequivocal "But he who endures to the end will be saved"?(please note: "will be" is future tense.)

Anyone here who is unshakably certain that they have indeed "endure(d) to the end"?  No?

Then all you truthfully have is the sure and certain HOPE of salvation.
Any who defy Christ's clear teachings and words(yes, including Paul) do so at the peril of their souls, for the arrogance of declaring contrary to the teachings of Christ.  Salvation does not and cannot occur until after "the end," however Christ meant it when He said it.

By way of analogy, all of us are shipwrecked souls, floating on the ocean of humanity, waiting TO BE saved---but none are ACTUALLY and TRULY and INDUBITABLY saved until the rescue boat puts them ashore on dry land.  That these floating souls have overcome drugs, alcohol, nicotine, philandering, adultery, theft, rage, jealousy, envy, or any number of other sins on the WAY to the shore still don't mean squat as to actual salvation(likely in conjunction with hearing the words "Well done, My good and faithful servant.").

Even Paul gets it when he says that he must work out his salvation in fear and trembling; Christ is also quite clear that only those who are "as a little child" shall be granted entry, too, thereby describing the essential ingredient to true salvation---humility---without which none ever have a chance.

As to works?  Christ said that only he who DOES the works of His Father will enter; sounds perfectly clear that actions are expected.  If that ain't enough, there's always what He said at Matthew 25, too, i.e. "I was hungry, and YOU FED Me; thirsty, and YOU GAVE Me drink.  I was a stranger, and YOU WELCOMED Me; naked, and YOU CLOTHED Me, sick or in prison and YOU VISITED Me."

All of the words in caps are actions," not sit-on-your-behind-excuses-for-enjoying-your "Grace."

Remember always the following words:

There is no salvation in Paul or any other name that is named under Heaven than that of Y'shua ha Mashiach.

Who else is King of kings and Lord of Lords?  Who else is the Cornerstone?  Who else is the Door?
Therefore equate(or, God forbid, elevate) the words of Paul or any other figure, biblical or not, to His at the peril of your foolish, ignorant, arrogant, graceless, pretentious soul.

Warmest regbards-

Hatman
Flag Rgurley4 March 24, 2012 3:03 AM EDT

I am saved eternally...Ephesians 8

Flag Hatman March 24, 2012 12:54 PM EDT

Mar 24, 2012 -- 3:03AM, Rgurley4 wrote:

I am saved eternally...Ephesians 8


Yeah, keep on trustin' Paul over Christ, and good luck with that.

As for me and my house, our faith and trust is in Christ and none else, for only He never leads astray to the slightest degree.  Paul?  His words have been used to justify a legion of sins, including(but certainly not limited to) the "destruction of the flesh" that Torquemada and many other devilish miscreants PRETENDING to be christians have gleefully engaged in.

Salvation is found in Christ alone; His words are to be esteemed, cherished, loved and obeyed over those of all others, without exception, without equivocation, without dissimulation.

Warmest regards-

Hatman

Flag Rgurley4 March 25, 2012 11:32 AM EDT

 JESUS ALONE for salvation...JESUS SAVES...NOT endure by your human "good works"


John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one COME to the Father but THROUGH Me..."Come" through the gift of unmerited Grace through Spirit-led Faith...
...NOT endure by your human "good works"


Knock and salvation will be opened!


John 3 ...extracts...Jesus: to the inquiring Nicodemus...including the famous John 3:16
'You must be born again (spiritually).'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone "born of the Spirit" (from above)....(NEED fulfilled...a NEW LIFE... CHANGED SPIRIT)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (cruxified ?)
that everyone who BELIEVES in Him may have eternal life....NOT endure by your human "good works"


John 6: 28-29...Jesus: to His followers
28 Then they (disciples) asked him, "What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent." ...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Jesus to Mary the Magdelene):.... "Your FAITH has saved YOU; go in peace."...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Jesus to followers...WARNING)...
"ENTER by the "narrow gate": (through Jesus the Christ). ...NOT endure by your human "good works
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to DESTRUCTION, and those (unbelievers) who enter by it are MANY."


John 15 (NIV) (extracts...comments),,,,Jesus: He is The Vine and Believers are His Branches...after salvation: JOY
......"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains (stay?) in Me and I in Him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from Me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)...NOT endure by your human "good works"
As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Now remain in My love.
If you obey My commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain in My love,
just as I have obeyed My Father's commands and remain in His love.
I have told you this so that My JOY may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you...
This is My command: Love each other.
John 13:34...Jesus: to followers:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


Matthew 22:37-40 (NASB)...Jesus confirms the lawyer's statement of the " BIG TWO" ...Law = Mosaic "BIG TEN"...after salvation: OBEDIENCE


37 And He said to him, “ ‘
 (BIG ONE) YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD
                     WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38 This is the great and FOREMOST commandment.
39 The second is like it,
(BIG TWO) ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS (you love)YOURSELF.’
40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law (OT Mosaic "LAW") and the Prophets.”...NOT endure by your human "good works"


(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following ) WORKS  is DEAD (judged spiritully useless)...NOT endure by your human "good works"


FINALLY my VIEWS:


FAITH / BELIEF is used over 200 times in the Bible as the sole requirement to finding and following God.


Romans 10 and Ephesians 8 gets us our "fire insurance". We become "born again from above" ...John 3....Christ-followers gain ALL the blessings of SALVATION.


The blessings / results of salvation:


1. Substitution:  "in the place of"
2. Redemption:  " pay ransom, remove, and release "
3. Reconciliation:  "alienation ends"
4. Propititation:  "satisfaction with action"
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...nature changed
6. Justification:  "view: Just-if-I..never" by the Advocate...legal term
7. Sanctification:  "goats to sheep" / "born again" / became "son" /


To me, "Belief" and "Faith" as used in the New Testament are almost identical in meaning and synonomous.


"Believe" occurs 152 times in 140 verses in the NASB...mostly in the NT.


G4103  pistos  (pe-sto's) =   ~faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure
G4100  pisteuo  (pe-styü'-o)  = ~believe, commit unto, commit to (one's) trust, be committed unto, be put in trust with, be commited to one's trust, believer


John 1:12 (NASB)
...But as many as RECEIVED Him (spiritually!), to them He gave the right to become children of God ,
even to those who BELIEVE (G4100) in His NAME,...NOT endure by your human "good works


I believe / rely on an excellent Bible scholar's statement:


"The CONDITION(S) for SALVATION...
Salvation is conditioned solely on FAITH / (BELIEF) in Jesus The Christ.
("repentance" may be a SYNONYM when understood to be a "re-thinking and a "turning around")
Nearly 200 times FAITH (or BELIEF) is stated as the single condition in the New Testament.
That FAITH must be placed in The Christ as one's substutute for and Savior from sin (/sins)...
The FALSE additions to FAITH...(see my list in other threads!)
REF: Ryrie Study Bible...expanded NASB...p. 2073


John 17:17 (NASB)
Sanctify them in the truth; Your WORD is TRUTH.

Flag TemplarS March 26, 2012 10:32 AM EDT

Faith, or belief, is fine so far as it goes. But none of the people who wrote about this in the NT sat back on their butt and said "I have faith" and did nothing else. For them (and for us, ideally) faith is active. It is not something you have, it is something you live. Jesus spoke against those who called him "Lord" but did not do as he commanded.  Paul, who is widely seen as being the "sola fide" man, was constantly chiding people for failing to live their lives up to Christ's standards, to live, as he put it, "in Christ." 


Anyhow- in the dichotomy between faith and works- why is our act of accepting Jesus in itself not a "work"?   


I think that is a false premise; I don't see faith/works as a dichotomy at all. Both are inseparable results of the Holy Spirit constantly at work within us; we are free to reject them both, or embrace them both, but it is a package deal.   


Generally, if somebody says  "I have faith", or "I have accepted Jesus as savior", or "I am saved", I am going to look for evidence of this beyond their words. 

Flag CometintheSky June 7, 2012 11:14 PM EDT

Jan 8, 2012 -- 4:23PM, 57 wrote:



John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

How is it possible to lose ones salvation?




God's Word, teaches that the Comforter, aka the Holy Spirit, will not leave believers, therefore, the Spirit will be with believers forever and the Spirit also seals believers, as well. The Bible also teaches that Jesus will not forsake believers and He will be with believers alway. Also, those who believe in Him, meaning the Father, who had sent Jesus to the earth, will have everlasting life. Those who believe in Jesus and His name will have eternal life, as well.


The phrases, everlasting life and eternal life means that believers will live forever throughout eternity. Therefore, the Bible teaches that John 3:16 KJV and other similar verses, that believers will be with the one and only God in existence, namely The Trinity. Also, God is an all powerful God, so much so, He will always keep believers in His hand, and in so doing, He will never lose believers by any means whatsoever, even not one believer, as well. No doubt, the believers will not be able to cast themselves out of the hand of God for any reason, as well. The Bible teaches that God is a truthful God, therefore, it would stand to reason that He never lies. It would stand to reason, that the latter half of John 3:16 KJV and other verses that are in reference to believers having  eternal/everlasting lives are direct promises from God. Since God does not lie and He states the truth, that would mean that His promises about eternal/everlasting salvation and that believers will be with Him throughout eternity, would always be kept by God, and in so doing it would stand to reason that God would never go back on His Word or break his promises for any reason, whatsoever. Therefore,, all believers would never lose his/her salvation for whatever the reasons may be, and since that is the case, all believers will be with God forever. 


God has given those who had accepted Jesus Christ, as his/her personal Lord and Saviour, the free gift of salvation, which is a permanent, no strings attached, gift. The free gift of salvation has never been a temporary, as well as, a conditional gift whatsoever. If the free gift of salvation was conditional, that would mean that the gift of salvation would not be a free gift and that would mean that believers would have to work, as a condition, to maintain the gift to keep it as a permanent gift. If the gift was conditional, that would mean that those who had accepted the gift would be boasting in heaven to one another regarding all the work they did to keep the gift as a permanent gift. Since they had worked to keep the gift as such, it would also mean that they had done other work, as well, which means that they had worked his/her way into heaven and in so doing would be boasting how they got to heaven on their own merit. The Bible teaches that no one can get to heaven through their own work in order to have no boasting. As you can see, the above scenario proves that God gives the unconditional and permanent free gift of salvation. Also, God is a loving God and because out of His love for believers, He would never be an Indian giver by taking back his free gift of salvation for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, as you can see, He would never take back His free gift of salvation.


The verss, which I call salvation verses, and the free gift of salvation does proove that all believers will always have, on a permanent basis, eternal/everlasting life with God throughout eternity.

Flag jesusfreakgal June 8, 2012 10:03 PM EDT

The bible says (regarding salvation): For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9). If salvation is a gift, why would it be taken away? When we get birthday or Christmas, or wedding gifts, the intension is not for them to be 'you can keep it only if...' or 'enjoy the x, y, or z, but if you behave/ do x thing(s) I will take it away'. That just doesn't happen. Gifts, rarely, if ever, come with restrictions. Why then would God's gift of salvation be any acception?


JFG

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