Apr 7, 2011 -- 2:13PM, voice-crying wrote:

Apr 7, 2011 -- 12:51PM, smcisaac wrote:

"In the air" is a metaphor for the internet.

Hi smcisaac, you always make me laugh.

Thanks, I do try.  Can't be argumentative all the time.

Apr 6, 2011 -- 5:25PM, Timai wrote:

I am very pleased with the way this thread is now progressing including some "new" interpretations of even the Gospel passages that record the (original and temporary) resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I also like the language being employed in recognizing many things that were expressed relative to the future including, "Once Christ Jesus calls us from the clouds to join Him in the air," should be metaphorically interpreted because the event those words describe came from authors that had never seen an airplane. (Furthermore, there are quite a number of human imposters that are quite capable of calling you from the air in this modern time because of the existence of modern air transportation.)

Seems there is hope even here on this forum to develop believers including recognizing the basis of the Christian religion is that Jesus Christ is your mediator before God.

Apr 7, 2011 -- 11:43AM, voice-crying wrote:

Not so fast!!!!

No one on this earth can call [the dead] in Christ to rise from the graves/earth/sea, in new glorified bodies.  And keep in mind that those alive who are not saved will not be able to see them rise, or see [those alive] (at the time) who are saved be changed into glorified bodies, in order to join Christ Jesus in heaven.  The event will be real because the Word of God said it.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" 1Thess 4:16 (read verse 16-18)

¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Apr 7, 2011 -- 7:05PM, Timai wrote:

I don't really continue to place much confidence in the writings of Paul anymore. So, many things have changed since then and the writings of Paul have been so exploited by persons that might be "faking" a variety of things. From my perspective, after decades of study and personal experience I am going back to the four books of the Gospels and re-considering those while recognizing even those were passed by "word of mouth" over several decades before they were written down. I see even the gospel passages as being subject to scrutiny in this day and age, particularly since if you have ever traced a "story" passed through several persons back to its source, you find what eventually resulted was far different than what was originally said. Also, Jesus Christ in His original physical manifestation was never quoted as requesting that His words be recorded in writing. (It is generally accepted that the disciples were illiterate and not capable of reading and writing.) Also, as I pointed out earlier, the writers of the New Testament had never seen all the things that they might have been envisioning when we try to extend those things based on what we know today.

The Apostle Paul's basis of authority is based on his statement of having been struck down by a vision-voice of Jesus Christ on the road to Damacus, which converted him. Furthermore, if you wish to rely on Paul, then it is really rare for Christians to continuously demonstrate "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and self-control," from which I conclude most would fail the test of the "fruits of the spirit".

Apr 8, 2011 -- 7:09AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

Timai said:

"Furthermore, if you wish to rely on Paul, then it is really rare for Christians to continuously demonstrate "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and self-control," from which I conclude most would fail the test of the "fruits of the spirit"."

Of course there are levels of attainment of these qualities. That goes for everything else in life. You are good, but you could be better; you are nice but you could be nicer.

As for a Christian, once the seeds have been sown and the intent is there, they have the whole eternity to perfect the 'fruits of the spirit'. Regeneration is a process. You are not a sinner one day and the saint the next. It takes time to change the old nature to the new.

That has something to do with the bodily resurrection? When the time comes for each individual's determination relative to entry into the "kingdom of heaven," which might be considered a "bodily resurrection, I really don't believe saying "I am working on it and the seed has been sown in me." is going to be an adequate excuse. I rather believe it is an unattainable, unrealistic goal that defies realization in the current world, but may come about after the "bodily resurrection" in the next world.

Apr 7, 2011 -- 11:43AM, voice-crying wrote:

Apr 6, 2011 -- 5:25PM, Timai wrote:

I also like the language being employed in recognizing many things that were expressed relative to the future including, "Once Christ Jesus calls us from the clouds to join Him in the air," should be metaphorically interpreted because the event those words describe came from authors that had never seen an airplane. (Furthermore, there are quite a number of human imposters that are quite capable of calling you from the air in this modern time because of the existence of modern air transportation.

Not so fast!!!!

No one on this earth can call [the dead] in Christ to rise from the graves/earth/sea, in new glorified bodies.  And keep in mind that those alive who are not saved will not be able to see them rise, or see [those alive] (at the time) who are saved be changed into glorified bodies, in order to join Christ Jesus in heaven.  The event will be real because the Word of God said it.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" 1Thess 4:16 (read verse 16-18)

¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I don't really continue to place much confidence in the writings of Paul anymore. So, many things have changed since then and the writings of Paul have been so exploited by persons that might be "faking" a variety of things. From my perspective, after decades of study and personal experience I am going back to the four books of the Gospels and re-considering those while recognizing even those were passed by "word of mouth" over several decades before they were written down. I see even the gospel passages as being subject to scrutiny in this day and age, particularly since if you have ever traced a "story" passed through several persons back to its source, you find what eventually resulted was far different than what was originally said. Also, Jesus Christ in His original physical manifestation was never quoted as requesting that His words be recorded in writing. (It is generally accepted that the disciples were illiterate and not capable of reading and writing.) Also, as I pointed out earlier, the writers of the New Testament had never seen all the things that they might have been envisioning when we try to extend those things based on what we know today.

The Apostle Paul's basis of authority is based on his statement of having been struck down by a vision-voice of Jesus Christ on the road to Damacus, which converted him. Furthermore, if you wish to rely on Paul, then it is really rare for Christians to continuously demonstrate "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and self-control," from which I conclude most would fail the test of the "fruits of the spirit".

Apr 7, 2011 -- 11:43AM, voice-crying wrote:

Apr 6, 2011 -- 5:25PM, Timai wrote:

I also like the language being employed in recognizing many things that were expressed relative to the future including, "Once Christ Jesus calls us from the clouds to join Him in the air," should be metaphorically interpreted because the event those words describe came from authors that had never seen an airplane. (Furthermore, there are quite a number of human imposters that are quite capable of calling you from the air in this modern time because of the existence of modern air transportation.

Not so fast!!!!

"In the air" is a metaphor for the internet.

Apr 5, 2011 -- 10:49AM, JimRigas wrote:

You asked and I respond.  I do not believe in Jesus' resurrection in his old body, because it obviously was not his old body.  Befiore his death eveybody could see him; after his death and so-called resurrection only "the selected few" could see him.   Every resurrection story in all four gospels, except the one in Luke 24:36 which is an obvious insertion, describes what we would call a "ghost."  The true believer can conclude honestly only that "ghosts" are real. 

Apr 5, 2011 -- 7:58PM, voice-crying wrote:

Anyone, who believes in their heart that Jesus is their Savior, is the bride to be.  The Holy Spirit will Seal them until the day of our Redemption.

Once Christ Jesus calls us from the clouds to join Him in the air; we shall become His bride (in heaven).

Apr 6, 2011 -- 12:39AM, Theo wrote:

Just like many other things - the Bride of Christ is a metaphor, albeit some people take it more literally and say that Christ and the Church are married... or more accurately - betrothed, and at the "rapture" the Church is caught up to heaven to be joined to Christ and celebrate the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I am very pleased with the way this thread is now progressing including some "new" interpretations of even the Gospel passages that record the (original and temporary) resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I also like the language being employed in recognizing many things that were expressed relative to the future including, "Once Christ Jesus calls us from the clouds to join Him in the air," should be metaphorically interpreted because the event those words describe came from authors that had never seen an airplane. (Furthermore, there are quite a number of human imposters that are quite capable of calling you from the air in this modern time because of the existence of modern air transportation.)

Seems there is hope even here on this forum to develop believers including recognizing the basis of the Christian religion is that Jesus Christ is your mediator before God.