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Switch to Forum Live View The Gospel and the Zodiac ~ Sun of God?
4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 9:06PM #1
Weepingangelofthetrees
Posts: 2,053






 


I've known about this video for awhile now and it fascinates me, because of the symbolism in the New Testament stories, relating to Yeshua and his 12 Disciples and how it all correlates to the Zodiac. Including the Goddess trinity, or the three Mary's that seemed to circle around him during his entire ministry.


In any event, it's a very short video and one that I think will prompt a great discussion.


There's also a 2008 title out called, The Gospel of the Zodiac, by Bill Darlison. It's found at Amazon and I have a request through Inter-Library loan at my local public library for a copy.


Amazon carries this review, so as to synopsize the content and perhaps bolster this discussion on the subject, I'll share it here.


Who was Jesus Christ? Did he exist?


For millennia the world has  been driven by the differences between the great patriarchal religions.  Western civilization--or Christendom, as it was once called--received  its values and its confidence from a belief in God, the Father, and  Jesus, his only son. But what if this conviction were founded on an  error?


Who is the man in the factually inconsistent Gospel  stories? And who is the man who makes a brief appearance carrying a jar  of water? This extraordinary study by a  Unitarian minister suggests  that Jesus never existed historically; he was simply a representation of  an astrological theology--a representation, simply put, of the zodiac  sign of Aquarius. In The Gospel and the Zodiac, Reverend Bill  Darlison demonstrates that all the other signs are present too, in  perfect zodiacal order. The Gospel story is not the product of  historians or eyewitnesses, but an older, mystical text produced by an  ancient, esoteric school as a guide to the Age of Pisces.


Every bit as revelatory and controversial as it sounds, The Gospel and the Zodiac will shake up the religious status quo, and in doing so, provide both a  new look at a religious icon and a deeper understanding of the faith  that binds millions together.


 


 


I look forward to your thoughts.


"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family."
Stephen Colbert
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2010 - 3:39PM #2
Stardove
Posts: 15,176

Here is another site which compares Horus and Jesus


Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:

Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this  matter By a virgin. 3
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Isis-Meri. 4 Miriam (now often referred to as Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (a.k.a. Jo-Seph). 4 Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother. 3
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child  representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he  had no birth date; he was not a human. Born during the fall. However, his birth date is now celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date  as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels. 3
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds. 3
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. An unknown number of wise men. 3 They are said to have brought three gifts; thus the legend grew that there were three men.
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess  Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child  and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual, when his eye was  restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar  mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist, a.k.a. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2010 - 3:44PM #3
Stardove
Posts: 15,176

How many gods where born on the 25th of december?
In: Alternative Religions

Attis of Greece c1200 BC
Krishna of India c900 BC
Dionysus of Greece c500 BC
Mithra of Persia c1200 BC
Horus of Egypt c3000 BC
Jesus of Nazareth c1 AD

Some other notables that i don't know the birth year of include.....

Salivahana of Bermuda
Orus of Egypt
Odin of Scandinavia
Crite of Chaldez
Thammuz of Syria
Adad of Assyria
Beddru of Japan

There are lots more. But these are the only ones I know of....... WikiAnswers


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2010 - 6:44PM #4
Phantasm
Posts: 767

Okay, some of the concepts in the second half are somewhat interesting.  Yes, there are many similarities between the life of Christ and other mesiah figures in mythology.  It also made me think, though, that it's somewhat shallow.  Most of that artwork displayed is at least a few hundred years old.  Now, I haven't seen modern paintings of Jesus, but I don't think they quite look like Middle Ages Art.  That light surrounding the head is a halo.  Because you need to identify who's who, and the halo distinguishes mortals from immortals in art.  It just doesn't have enough substance in the second half of the presentation.


It downplays the concept that Jesus actually lived.  Biblical scholars agree on that for the most part.  The story of Passion Week is so central to Christianity, some part of it had to have happened.  I think an interesting comprimise would be C. S. Lewis' True Myth.


iambicadmonit.blogspot.com/2007/10/chris...


I'm not saying you have to agree with it 100%.  As per our discussion about the importance of miracles to establish Jesus' identity, I struggle with what the heck happened when the diciples started claiming Jesus was risen from the dead.  Something happened back there that really, really impressed them, enough to openly rebel against the individuals among the Pharasees that had him killed. I just can't be sure what that something was.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2010 - 1:01PM #5
Weepingangelofthetrees
Posts: 2,053

I posted this because for some time I've known about the video, though the book is new to me. I think it's intriguing how there's a corrolary between astrology, which predates astronomy, and the story of Yeshua and all sun god myths that preceded him. As well as how his story relates to other god's in other cultures that existed long before his story was born.


I think too, as I research more into the subject of what went into compiling today's New Testament, as well as the Apologetics that surround Jesus, that it's not beyond fair consideration that the scribes who contributed to those documents that were approved to become today's Bible in whole, and the councils that elected it's canonization, as learned men would have known about the ancient Jewish scriptures.


They would have known the prophetic parts as well, so that when yet another Messiah, as there were many during and before Jesus arrival, was a genuine learned revolutionary Rabbi who taught an includivist doctrine quite contrary to what many were use to, and that was similar in many respects for the Pagan's in attendance to his teachings, to their own myths that he became the opportunity for what is today's Messianic Judaism to insure Judaism itself evolved and survived into the new ages of the future.


It is said if one wants to control the human in whole, they must captivate their mind, body and spirit. Religious dogma/doctrine insures dominion over that trinity of the self. So, in effect, in the region of Palestine Jesus was said to occupy at the time and Judaism with it's influence amid the Pagan occupied territories, to expound on the teachings of a radical Rabbi who spoke more like unto a Pagan and included women in his ministry, which was unheard of in Judaism, I think would have been shocking and yet liberating to the people of that time. Those who, like today's exodus many are making from the Orthodox faiths, would have wanted something else that fed their spirit more than traditional doctrine, could have witnessed the opportunity to find their own way to peace in his words.



And given his story survived his death, when other so called Messiahs came and went, and were even executed, leads one to infer he had not only something of value to teach the people in a time of oral traditions, but also was alive amid a trade route wherein his story would have been able to spread far and wide simply by travelers word of mouth. Also poets, scribes, etc... would have become involved in spreading the tale of the Rabbi that heals with tough, raises the dead, feeds the starving with little fare, etc...


However, the problem becomes tracking the word of mouth about this man. And most importantly that there are no documents yet discovered that relate, under the Roman's record of such a trial and sentencing, his trial and crucifixion.


So I think what is present in the story of Jesus is more of a real Rabbi, teaching revolutionary ideas about self, god and that relationship, upon whom the prophesied Messiah of the Jewish scriptures was pinned. So as to feed both sides of that aforementioned human trinity. I.E. those of the time who were dedicated to the old Jewish scriptures that remained living in wait for the Messiah. And those who as Jews and others looking for another faith system , were comfortable in accepting the amalgamation of a Jewish Messiah come to fruition in the man, who's ministry embraced the familiar and the Pagan philosophies.


 


 


"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family."
Stephen Colbert
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 10:05AM #6
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Something happened back there that really, really impressed them, enough to openly rebel against the individuals among the Pharasees that had him killed. I just can't be sure what that something was."


While you're doubting everything else about the Gopel 'mythos' - why don't you doubt that part?


Are you even aware of the inconsistencies between the Gospel accounts and the actual laws and procedures for a Sanhedrin trial?   Have you forgotten how Rome oppressed its 'colonies'?  It took Caesar three legions to conquer all of Gaul - OK, so JC was a military genius! - but it took the Roman Empire FIVE legions to keep a lid on Judea.....


While anyone was re-assessing the Christianity of their childhood - did they ever consider re-assessing the anti-Jewish messages in their Gospels?

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 11:14AM #7
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Aug 1, 2010 -- 1:01PM, Weepingangelofthetrees wrote:


I posted this because for some time I've known about the video, though the book is new to me. I think it's intriguing how there's a corrolary between astrology, which predates astronomy, and the story of Yeshua and all sun god myths that preceded him. As well as how his story relates to other god's in other cultures that existed long before his story was born.


I think too, as I research more into the subject of what went into compiling today's New Testament, as well as the Apologetics that surround Jesus, that it's not beyond fair consideration that the scribes who contributed to those documents that were approved to become today's Bible in whole, and the councils that elected it's canonization, as learned men would have known about the ancient Jewish scriptures.


>>>>>>The above is quite the understatement.  It's very obvious in many places in the Gospels that the Torah is being quoted/misquoted/paraphrased.  BUT - the 'scribes' or 'disciples' doing so were NOT well-informed or else had no desire to be accurate. 


They would have known the prophetic parts as well,


>>>>>>Just one problem with this:  the classic 'proof texts' used by Christian apologists - all that 'Isaiah virgin birth' stuff, etc, etc - THAT IS NO PART of actual Jewish prophesy of the Messiah.  We have a completely different understanding of those passages - AND of the term 'prophesy', AND of 'salvation'.


There are other problems as well - the geneology disqualifies, and the work was certainly not completed.


so that when yet another Messiah, as there were many during and before Jesus arrival


>>>>>>>   AND continued to be well after:  I think the last one was ca 1600 CE or so!  was a genuine learned revolutionary Rabbi


>>>>>>  ONLY if you've never read Hillel (who BTW was 'THE' Pharisee)


 who taught an includivist doctrine quite contrary to what many were use to,


>>>>>>>> OH?  I think you lack knowledge of what Judaism did or does teach.


and that was similar in many respects for the Pagan's in attendance to his teachings,


>>>>>>>>  OH?  Do you honestly suppose this 'similarity' was actually there in Jesus' teachings - OR WAS IT INSERTED LATER by the likes of Paul (who got into trouble over just that with James the Just?)


 to their own myths that


>>>>>>  MYths which the Greek-educated knew and tailored their story to appeal to said pagans.


he became the opportunity for what is today's Messianic Judaism to insure Judaism itself evolved and survived into the new ages of the future.


>>>>>>>  I don't think so, kiddo!  For one thing M'J' has NO connection to 'the Way' or the earliest Church:  there IS no physical 'descent' nor connection'.  Most of the 'Way' people perished in Jerusalem ca 70-73 CE:  most of the Judean population in toto were hauled off as slaves. Hundreds of thousands of them:  there were so many, the price of slaves actually crashed because of it.


Where M'J' derives from is another story - let's just set that aside for now, OK?


"...to insure Judaism itself evolved and survived into the new ages of the future."


>>>>>>  Falser words have rarely been posted anywhere! 


 From the stone carvings depicting 'Iudea' mourning on the left side of the door, with the 'Church Triumphant' on the right, through the Crusaders murdering half of Germany's Jewish population on their way to the Holy Land , through the Spanish Inquisition and the murder incited by Luther's writings, right straight up through the 'Mission to the Hebrews' attempted cultural genocide, and the current 'Boycott/Divest/Sanctions' movement of some 'progressive' Churches  - Christian Churches, Catholic and Protestant and 'Other'(JW, SDA, LDS, etc) have sought again and again to wipe out judaism and the Jewish People.


For those who didn't get the news:  It's been 2100 years since R. Hillel, and Judaism has evolved and survived and will in future - NO THANKS TO CHRISTIAN CHURCHES.  REAL Judaism, not a cheap imitation by Baptist-seminary-trained 'rabbis' who've changed their names to pretend to a 'Jewish' descent they do not have.


It is said if one wants to control the human in whole, they must captivate their mind, body and spirit. Religious dogma/doctrine insures dominion over that trinity of the self. So, in effect, in the region of Palestine   Judea Jesus was said to occupy at the time and Judaism with it's influence amid the Pagan occupied territories, to expound on the teachings of a radical Rabbi who spoke more like unto a Pagan


>>>>>>>  Most of the 'red letter' quotes sound very Jewish and not Pagan at all.


 and included women in his ministry, which was unheard of in Judaism,


>>>>>>  Never heard of Beruriah, have you?  She's quoted in the Talmud.  At least one prophet and a Judge were women. 


I think would have been shocking and yet liberating to the people of that time.


>>>>>>>  And I think this is completely WRONG - but first I'd have to explain actual Judaism as actually practiced by actual Jews of that time for you to begin to understand.


 Those who, like today's exodus many are making from the Orthodox faiths, would have wanted something else that fed their spirit more than traditional doctrine, could have witnessed the opportunity to find their own way to peace in his words.


>>>>>>My advice:  Go and learn about Judaism from those who believe in and practice it - and THEN read the NT again.  You'll see it very differently indeed.



And given his story survived his death, when other so called Messiahs came and went, and were even executed, leads one to infer he had not only something of value to teach the people in a time of oral traditions, but also was alive amid a trade route wherein his story would have been able to spread far and wide simply by travelers word of mouth. Also poets, scribes, etc... would have become involved in spreading the tale of the Rabbi that heals with tough, raises the dead, feeds the starving with little fare, etc...


>>>>>>Yeah, that 'miracle' nonsense really impresses those ignorant Pagans.....


However, the problem becomes tracking the word of mouth about this man. And most importantly that there are no documents yet discovered that relate, under the Roman's record of such a trial and sentencing, his trial and crucifixion.


So I think what is present in the story of Jesus is more of a real Rabbi, teaching revolutionary ideas about self, god and that relationship, upon whom the prophesied Messiah of the Jewish scriptures was pinned.


>>>>>>>>> Except that the 'prophesies' are NOT the Jewish set of same.  So the 'pinning' was obviously NOT done by Jews.


So as to feed both sides of that aforementioned human trinity. I.E. those of the time who were dedicated to the old Jewish scriptures that remained living in wait for the Messiah.


>>>>>>>  This, of course, completely explains the passage in Talmud (aka 'Oral Teachings' of Judaism - the portion of Jewish Teachings missing in Christianity) where we are advised:  "If you are planting a tree and someone comes up to tell you the Messiah has come - finish planting the tree before you go running to greet him."


It's not your fault you are so ignorant of what Jews believe.  It certainly doesn't matter to your salvation!  But, if you care about not spreading untruths about others, you'll take some time to go and learn.  It need not 'impede' your Christianity - there are many very devout Chrisitians here who have extensive knowledge of Judaism who can explain most of the errors you've made here to you. 


And those who as Jews and others looking for another faith system , were comfortable in accepting the amalgamation of a Jewish Messiah come to fruition in the man, who's ministry embraced the familiar and the Pagan philosophies.




>>>>  My replies to your words are in blue to try to make for easier reading.  I didn't make as complete a response as I'd wish - but more due to 'where do I begin?' than any lack of reply. 


If my 'interruption' into this thread has offended anyone, I apologize - I'd thought you'd be 'progressive' enough to understand my concern is not any desire to attack the Christian faith nor Christian people (I'm related to about 50 of the best!), but simply to correct some hugely erroneous conjectures by a very ill-informed poster whose intent I'm certain was quite positive.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 1:17PM #8
Weepingangelofthetrees
Posts: 2,053

You don't offend me at all. In fact if you were aware of my contributions in this forum to date, you'd know that I am not Christian. Which is why this discussion is forthcoming. To ferret out the differences, between what Christian Apologists declare supports their faith as opposed to that of the Jews at the time.


I think the extensive knowledge you claim to hold on this topic would come across more genuinely, if you didn't afford such a condescending attitude in the process of relating it. As it stands, given that, I stopped reading half way in. I don't need to learn what that kind of blue print has to say.


"Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family."
Stephen Colbert
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 1:59PM #9
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

if I didn't offend you, then why'd you stop reading?


If you want to insist my words were 'condescending' - have you considered the possibility that your own words were insensitive?


I never meant to suggest my knowledge is 'extensive' - only that you've got a virtual void of accurate information about Jewish beliefs and practices of either 'then' or 'now'.  In fact, most of the accurate information on what you got wrong has been shared with me by several Christian friends on these boards.


Now - if you want to discuss anything specific, that'd be fine with me : ))

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 2:20PM #10
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Given you've stated  "To ferret out the differences, between what Christian Apologists declare supports their faith as opposed to that of the Jews at the time." was your intent - I think the discussion with only Christians  would be inadequate.  I'm curious about how you planned to get the Jewish input on the topic:  this is basically a 'Christian' board and very few 'others' ever come by.


In order to detect the differences between the two belief systems, it seems it'd be more logical to learn about first-century Judaism and compare those beliefs to the earliest versions of 'doctrine' available from Christianity.  Unless one knows the content behind the two labels ('Jewish' and 'Christian') - how is one able to even see the differences? 


If you thought my words were 'condescending', I'm sorry.  It's very easy to get accurate information about the basic beliefs of Judaism from Wiki, or aish.com, or theviurtualjewishlibrary or any number of other sources.  I'm just a housewife with about a high-school Jewish education:  I don't have any pretensions to 'extensive knowledge'.


Unfortunately,  there is no 'Jewish/Christian' debate board - though we could all go over to 'Multifaith', which I suspect could annoy my several Pagan friends over there what with the preponderance of all the Christian stuff already.....  You might consult one of B'net's own 'Trinity (RangerKen, Merope, Stardove) as to a better placement for this discussion, if you wish?


 

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