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Switch to Forum Live View Can One Tree Bear Twelve Kinds of Fruit?
5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 6:59AM #21
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

Are we there yet? I'm bored.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 7:30AM #22
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

Actually, I'm not bored.


It would be my reasoning that anything the general population of the Jews believed probably wasn't right in the first place.  Jesus continually rebuked and corrected them as being blind and unable to understand the things of God.


What a load of anti-Semitic CRAP, Ted. No wonder one of the grand muckety-mucks of the Southern Baptists opined that God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews, if that's the attitude engendered in churches like yours.


Jesus' ministry was thoroughly steeped in Jewish theology and spirituality, which is obvious to anyone who has even a passing acquaintance with Judaism -- which you apparently do not. If anything, Jesus was actually closer to the Pharisees in his ideas about the inbreaking kingdom fo God, about the urgency of making Godward-moving changes in one's life, about moving the center of religious attention away from the Temple and into the home and synagogue -- than any of the other schools of thought in the Judaism of his day. The fact that Jesus saved some of his strongest invective for the Pharisees speaks to the fact that 1)he was dialoguing with them more than anyone else, indicating a mutual interest; and 2)a special level of frustration with them -- so close and yet so far away as far as their ideas of reforming/renewing Judaism went.


And, Ted, if you had more than a pseudo-knowledge of Judaism, you would be aware that the Judaism of Jesus' day was a multifaceted faith that encompassed everyone from Saducees -- the conservative Temple establishment types -- to Pharisees to Jewish charismatics and everyone in between. When the Gospels talk about "the Jews" they are not talking about the Jewish people in general; they are usually talking about the Temple-oriented Jewish leadership, which definitely saw Jesus as a political and religious threat to the uneasy relationship they had forged with the Romans, and maybe to a lesser extent with the Pharisee party, which tied "the day of the Lord" and the restoration of the political kingdom of Israel with the Jewish people's rigor in following the letter of the Levitical law. 


If you don't understand Judaism, you're going to have a hard time understanding Jesus. That is why at least some of us, in our religious formation, are taught to pay as much attention to the Old Testament as the New.


You really -- really -- should be ashamed of yourself, Ted. Your attitude has fueled pogroms and "Final Solutions" for centuries. Feh.


 

Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on Mar 04, 2010 - 09:44PM
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 8:04AM #23
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hi Jen,


When I lived in Florida I had on my property a star fruit tree.  At the time there weren't a lot of commercial growers and so people would bring 5 gallon buckets to my house and pay me for the 'honor' of picking my star fruit.  Here's how it would unfold.


At the very first of the star fruit season they would come and fill up 2 or 3 five gallon buckets from my tree.  Then they would tell me that they would be back in a few weeks to pick more of the ripening fruit and sure enough about a two weeks later they would show up and pick another couple of buckets and then usually they would come back a third time.  You see, the fruit didn't all ripen at once and each time they would come they would only harvest the crop of fruit that was nice and yellow.  Sometimes when they would pick the first crop there would still be blossoms on the tree where the fruit hadn't even begun to grow and this was usually the crop that was harvested last.


Off of that one tree I usually collected, through the season, enough to pay my property taxes at the time.  Today I would probably need an entire acre of trees to do the same thing.  Taxes are high!!!!


Sadly, some growers in the area began to grow the trees commercially and about 4 years after I moved in the pickers lost interest in coming to my house to pick the fruit and from then on all the fruit just became fodder for my lawn mower.


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 8:24AM #24
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hi Tawonda,


You wrote:


What a load of anti-Semitic CRAP, Ted. No wonder one of the grand muckety-mucks of the Southern Baptists opined that God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews, if that's the attitude engendered in churches like yours.


I'm not familiar with the circumstances under which the above alleged comment of a SB Grand Muckety-Muck was made, but try this one.


Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom:  listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!  The multitude of your sacrifices what are they to me?  says the Lord.  I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattedned animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.  When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of ou, this trampling of my courts?  Stop bringing meaningless offerings!  Your incense is detestable to me.  New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations I cannot bear your evil assemblies.  Your New Moon fesivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates.  They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing the.  When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you:  even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen.


Now, I understand that your theology teaches that the Scriptures are man-made and that it's all some fantastic account of how people viewed and understood God in their unlearned state.  However, for those of us who believe otherwise, that the Scriptures have been written, protected and carried along by the power of God, this passage of Isaiah claims to be the Lord speaking through his servant and that his anger against the wickedness of the Jews would be known by their unheard and unanswered prayers.


Again, not being privey to the comments that you refer to, I can't really make any kind of determination about the veracity of the claim, but there is Scriptural proof, from God's own mouth, that there would be such a time that God would turn from the prayers of his people.


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 8:48AM #25
Want to know
Posts: 1,673

Ted, you need to get over your prejudices against Jews. You are doing what people have done for ages in pulling something out of context in the Bible to cover their feelings against Jews, Blacks, gays and lesbians. And to think God does not hear the prayers of Jews is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Ted, you really need to have a good talk with God and try to put away some of your evil feelings of others. Ted, your are good at telling everyone else of their mistakes and how they need to improve to get right with God. You need to work on yourself for awhile.

"Now we see as through a glass, darkly but then face to face:  now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."  I Corinthians 13:12
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 9:54AM #26
Verdugo
Posts: 5,258

Mar 4, 2010 -- 8:24AM, miami-ted wrote:


Now, I understand that your theology teaches that the Scriptures are man-made and that it's all some fantastic account of how people viewed and understood God in their unlearned state.  




 


Ted, by this comment you are demonstrating the exact same problem you demonstrated in the post Tawonda is taking issue with.  You have a pattern of jumping to conclusions about other people's (or people groups') beliefs, opinions, and motives w/o really knowing much at all about them.  You jump to quick and easy generalizations about the Jews based on a single passage of Scripture rather than the more nuanced, multi-faceted interplay of their relationship with Yahweh that is recorded in the OT.  You misrepresent Tawonda's rich and well-developed understanding of biblical authority based on a very crude stereotype of what you think "liberals" believe about the Bible.  This is really poor argumentation, but even more it is a poor way for Christians to relate to others, one that is explicitly condemned by our Savior.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 10:40AM #27
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hello Verdugo,


I suppose there may be some truth to your claim, but I didn't use derogatory picture words to describe her understanding.  I have conversed with Tawonda on numerous occasions and I'm fairly sure that if you asked her she would agree that I have determined correctly her position regarding the Scriptures.  If I had the time and inclination I would even search the archives and bring up some of the evidence for you, but I also know that you have conversed with her on occasion and know her position regarding the Scriptures.


My complaint was not that anyone should be chastised, or rebuked for discerning a persons heart, while that may be Bnet's position, but rather the words used to describe what she has discerned regarding my heart.  The words are inflammatory and derogatory towards me and my position regarding the truth of the Scriptures.


As far as her complaint and that of WTK, nothing could be further from the truth that I hate God's chosen people.  As I've stated on numerous occasions on these boards, just because I don't agree with someone's position, or as in this case, I speak the, certainly to me, obvious truth that the Jews have never really understood God's desire for them, does not and cannot in any logical way infer that I hate them.  I love the Jews, after all it is only through their efforts, guided by God and his Holy Spirit that I even have the Scriptures available to me that I might know eternal life through God's one and only Son.  It was through the continued use of Jews that the gospel of salvation was preached in all the world of that day.  Paul, Peter, John, Matthew were all Jews.  How could I possibly hate such effort or the people who made it!  I love the Jew, but that doesn't in anyway infer that I must therefore agree with their position.


I think any simple reading of the Scriptures would indicate that God knows and God agrees that his very own people were the ultimate instrument of his Son's death.  I think that anyone who reads through the books of the prophets could not possibly miss the repeated times that God rebuked and punished the people that He loved and raised from the loins of Abraham for their continued unfaithfulness and lack of understanding.


As it is written:


Hear, O heaven!  Listen, O earth.  For the Lord has spoken:  I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me.  The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.


Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption!  They have forsaken the Lord; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.


Why should you be beaten anymore?  Why do you persist in rebellion?  Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted.  From the sole of your foot to top of your head there is no soundness...


and again:


Hear the word of the Lord, O house of Jacob, all you clans of the house of Israel.  This is what the Lord says:


What fault did your fathers find in me, that they strayed so far from me?  They followed worthless idols and became worthless themselves.  they did not ask, where is the Lord, who brought us up out of Egypt and led us through the barren wilderness, through a land of deserts and rifts, a land of drought and darkness, a land where no one travels and no one lives?


I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce.  But you came and defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable.  The priests did not ask, Where is the Lord.  Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me.  The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols.


Therefore I bring charges against you again, declares the Lord.  And I will bring charges against your children's children.


and again Daniel prays for all of Israel in this way:


O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, we have sinned and done wrong.  We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws.  We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.


It would see, based on the conclusions that have been drawn in this last bit of our discussion, that Daniel hated the Jews just as much as I do.  Look he called his own people wicked.  He brought charges of rebellion against them.  How Daniel must have hated his brothers.


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 1:37PM #28
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,051

Things we know:


1) The Revelation of John is part of a literary genre known as apocalyptic, a popular literary genre in antiquity, especially in the Second Temple Period and shortly thereafter.


2) The apocalyptic genre is known for its high use of symbolic language and graphic imagery to paint vibrant pictures with words which are embedded with meaning. The Revelation is no different, it is saturated with symbolic and apocalyptic language.


So before we even start trying to figure out what the heck it's talking about we need to understand these two facts otherwise we're reading the text wrong in the first place (much like if you were to go and try and read The Lord of the Rings as a wilderness field guide or C++ For Dummies like a romance novel).


There is a great deal of inconsistancy among those who try and turn the Revelation into a literal text. Why is the New Jerusalem and Tree of Life literal but not the Beast who is described as a monstrous chimera rising out of the sea? Metaphor/symbolism and literalness are chosen at an arbitrary basis rather than from a systematic, holistic reading of the text (i.e. doing good exegesis and hermaneutics).


I don't believe that John is telling us a monstrous chimera will rise out from the sea, or that a large scarlet beast will have a rider named Babylon the Whore. Neither do I believe a vortex to the netherworld is going to open and demon locusts will pour out of it. I don't believe four guys riding on horses are going to bring war, pestilence and death upon the planet. So by the same token I don't believe a giant city made of gold is going to float down out of the sky.


These are all symbolic, apocalyptic images, and if St. John of Patmos heard us trying to figure out how a tree can produce twelve kinds of fruit he would give us all a deep frustrated sigh and make a facepalm at us.


-Jon

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 1:50PM #29
Jenandew7
Posts: 13,353

Mar 4, 2010 -- 1:37PM, Xristocharis wrote:


Things we know:


1) The Revelation of John is part of a literary genre known as apocalyptic, a popular literary genre in antiquity, especially in the Second Temple Period and shortly thereafter.


2) The apocalyptic genre is known for its high use of symbolic language and graphic imagery to paint vibrant pictures with words which are embedded with meaning. The Revelation is no different, it is saturated with symbolic and apocalyptic language.


So before we even start trying to figure out what the heck it's talking about we need to understand these two facts otherwise we're reading the text wrong in the first place (much like if you were to go and try and read The Lord of the Rings as a wilderness field guide or C++ For Dummies like a romance novel).


There is a great deal of inconsistancy among those who try and turn the Revelation into a literal text. Why is the New Jerusalem and Tree of Life literal but not the Beast who is described as a monstrous chimera rising out of the sea? Metaphor/symbolism and literalness are chosen at an arbitrary basis rather than from a systematic, holistic reading of the text (i.e. doing good exegesis and hermaneutics).


I don't believe that John is telling us a monstrous chimera will rise out from the sea, or that a large scarlet beast will have a rider named Babylon the Whore. Neither do I believe a vortex to the netherworld is going to open and demon locusts will pour out of it. I don't believe four guys riding on horses are going to bring war, pestilence and death upon the planet. So by the same token I don't believe a giant city made of gold is going to float down out of the sky.


These are all symbolic, apocalyptic images, and if St. John of Patmos heard us trying to figure out how a tree can produce twelve kinds of fruit he would give us all a deep frustrated sigh and make a facepalm at us.


-Jon




Very good, Jon! 

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2010 - 2:36PM #30
tawonda
Posts: 4,367

Ted, your posts are becoming ever more offensive and ridiculous.


Jesus was a Jew. Every time you slander the Jews you slander Jesus.

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