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Switch to Forum Live View Christianity is not a new religion
4 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2010 - 11:59AM #11
KindredSai
Posts: 4,983

Christianity is like a wardrobe and almost every item is either borrowed or stolen.


Christianity may not be a new religion to it's followers but do the math:


 


Virgin Birth: Zoroastrianism


Three Kings with gifts: Hinduism


Crucifixion: Mithraism


Easter: Roman ancient traditions

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2010 - 9:57AM #12
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

Oct 16, 2010 -- 11:59AM, KindredSai wrote:


Christianity is like a wardrobe and almost every item is either borrowed or stolen.


Christianity may not be a new religion to it's followers but do the math:


Virgin Birth: Zoroastrianism


Three Kings with gifts: Hinduism


Crucifixion: Mithraism


Easter: Roman ancient traditions




First of all, how do you "steal" a religious idea?


Secondly prove that Islam did not "steal" content and concepts from the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, as well as pre-Islamic Arabian customs: the Prophets, halal / kashrut, haram / treyf, hijab / yichud, messiah / mahdi, Judgement Day, the sanctity of Jerusalem, djinn, blood-writ, the Evil Eye, the Hand of Fatima....


None of your listed analogies are self-evident.


Virgin-birth tales exist worldwide; the Popul Vuh featured a virgin-birth though Mayans never came in contact with Zoroastrianism. In the Near East there were probably hundreds of stories with the same theme; how are you certain that Christianity "stole" the idea from Zoroastrianism?


As for the Three Kings -- only two Gospels mention them, and neither specifically say that there are three kings, only that there are three gifts. In any case, why is that of Hindu origin and not a literary embellishment on the author's part?


Why is the Crucifixion Mithratic, and not originating from the death of Osirius?


And the last one--you don't even bother to specify the "Roman ancient custom." Surely not the Ludi Romani? In most languages Easter is called differing versions of "Pesach," Passover.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2010 - 12:37PM #13
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

First of all, how do you "steal" a religious idea?


>>>>>>> 


This is an interesting question. Actually "Stealing" [ In my humble opinion] is not the right word.


But some people think, Christianity "adopted" or "accepted" some pagan European practices which were not part of what Jesus preached. Another group of people says that, modern Christians do not follow original teaching but they follow teaching of Paul. As Paul gave different explanation of what Jesus meant in his teachings.


According to history and scripture, Jesus came from Jewish tribe and he was a practicing Jew. Therefore, he honored saturday sabath and did not eat pork ( Banned in the OT by God). The Bible says......


Lev 11:7

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Isaiah 66:17

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.



Deuteronomy 14:8

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

.........


Jesus was very serious about these laws. He said (In the Bible)


Till heaven and earth pass away




 



"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot* or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."


- Matthew 5:17-20


[ *A jot is the smallest letter in the Greek and Hebrew alphabets; a tittle is the small stroke in certain Hebrew letters. Thus, the whole of the law is the foundation of the new teaching.]




 Now a days you will not find many Christians who reject pork following Jesus's instruction. Only groups of people I know that follows the such laws are Jews and Muslims. While Jews do not accept Jesus as a religious figure that leaves Muslims as the only non-Christian group who not only accepts Jesus as part of religion but honor laws of OT [ As a religious practice] by rejecting pork.


There are similar discussions/debates about using Sunday as day of worship/rest day. I knew some Christians ( A small sect within Christianity) who used Saturday as day of worship and did not work on that day.


Even the very concept of "Trinity" was "Formally" adopted/accepted into mainstream Christianity 325 years AFTER Jesus son of Mary left us.


There are few more areas like this where people ask if these are modern adoption or part of what Jesus taught us.


Following this discussion, I think this is what our fellow member meant. Hope this was some help.


I know there are other members who are far wiser than me in these matters. I am sure they can add more to this discussion.


May you have a blessed day.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2010 - 5:51PM #14
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

Hello BDBoy, good to hear from you.


Oct 21, 2010 -- 12:37PM, BDboy wrote:


First of all, how do you "steal" a religious idea?


>>>>>>> 


This is an interesting question. Actually "Stealing" [ In my humble opinion] is not the right word.


But some people think, Christianity "adopted" or "accepted" some pagan European practices which were not part of what Jesus preached.




On this statement I to an extent agree with such people. The evergreenery we use to decorate at Christmas time, and the yule log, is originally a pagan seasonal custom. The upcoming Feast of All Saints and the Feast of All Souls, amoungst the holiest days in the Christian calander, parallel pagan days of the dead--e.g., Halloween.


For most (but certainly not every) part Christians, however, such things are not contradictory with our faith. I cannot from mere memory and with confidence name any of these gods for example, connected to the Germanic gods. Even if I did, I would see no connection between them and my Christmas tree.


Furthermore, as Catholics we believe that Christ ordained the apostles, headed by Peter, vesting them with the authority of His Church: "You, peter, I have founded my Church on a rock..."


Muhammed also allowed pre-Islamic practices that didn't conflict with God's revelation, either. Djinn, for example, is a pre-Islamic. The concept of blood-writ is a pre-Islamic.


 The criteria by which Islam and Christianty (and within movements of both faiths) find "pagan" practices acceptable with the new faith differ, but neither rejects either outright.


Oct 21, 2010 -- 12:37PM, BDboy wrote:


Another group of people says that, modern Christians do not follow original teaching but they follow teaching of Paul. As Paul gave different explanation of what Jesus meant in his teachings.




Or perhaps an alternate explanation. I frankly don't know enough about their position for further comment.




[\quote]


According to history and scripture, Jesus came from Jewish tribe and he was a practicing Jew.




Well, there are some historians that doubt Jesus existed...another debate...


Oct 21, 2010 -- 12:37PM, BDboy wrote:


 Therefore, he honored saturday sabath and did not eat pork ( Banned in the OT by God). The Bible says......


Lev 11:7

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Isaiah 66:17

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Deuteronomy 14:8

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

.........


Jesus was very serious about these laws. He said (In the Bible)


Till heaven and earth pass away




"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot* or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."


- Matthew 5:17-20


[ *A jot is the smallest letter in the Greek and Hebrew alphabets; a tittle is the small stroke in certain Hebrew letters. Thus, the whole of the law is the foundation of the new teaching.]




 Now a days you will not find many Christians who reject pork following Jesus's instruction. Only groups of people I know that follows the such laws are Jews and Muslims. While Jews do not accept Jesus as a religious figure that leaves Muslims as the only non-Christian group who not only accepts Jesus as part of religion but honor laws of OT [ As a religious practice] by rejecting pork.




BD, one of the major recurring themes of the Gospel is that Jesus paradoxically challenges the immobile Law in the prescence of the Pharisees and Saduccees: shomer shabbat, hand-washing, kashrut, are all challenged.


"1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" (Matthew 15:1-2)


This is in accordance with the repeated commands to wash in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. It is still a continuing custom for Orthodox Jews to wash before and after meals on the Sabbath.


 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'a]" class="footnote">[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'b]" class="footnote">[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his fatherc]" class="footnote">[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
 8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 9They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'d]" class="footnote">[d]"


 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "


 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"


 13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.e]" class="footnote">[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."


 15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."


 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Matthew 15:3-20)


Seventh Day Adventists also reject pork (and also shellfish, etc.) on the Scriptural grounds you present. I choose not eat pork and shellfish or their derivatives as a personal practice, and I do not expect it of other Christians.


Halal differs with kashrut on criteria for "clean" animals. Camels and in most Sunni schools shellfish are halal, but they are not kosher; in those (and other) respects Muslims do not fit the logic you present.


Oct 21, 2010 -- 12:37PM, BDboy wrote:


There are similar discussions/debates about using Sunday as day of worship/rest day. I knew some Christians ( A small sect within Christianity) who used Saturday as day of worship and did not work on that day.




Yes, the Sabbatarians. They were probably Seventh Day Adventists, although I wouldn't call them a small sect. The latter's community is one of a few surviving movements deriving from the 19th-century teachings of William Miller, who proclaimed the Second Coming of Christ in 1843.


As far as I'm aware--and I may be wrong--there's no Christian community existing from the early Church that currently worships exclusively on Saturday.


However, Saturday does have a regard of honour in some communities. The Catholic Church for example, clearly states in its catechism that the seventh day, Saturday, is the Sabbath, not the "first" or symbolic "eigth" day, Sunday:


345 - The sabbath - the end of the work of the six days. The sacred text says that "on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done," that the "heavens and the earth were finished," and that God "rested" on this day and sanctified and blessed it. These inspired words are rich in profitable instruction: 


Eastern Christians (Orthodox or Catholic) do not fast on Saturdays and Sundays of Lent except for Holy Saturday, the day before Easter. As for Oriental Orthodox, I'm not sure, but they might also break their fasts on Saturdays and Sundays.


Ethiopian Orthodox Christians continue to have Saturday services along with Sunday services.


Oct 21, 2010 -- 12:37PM, BDboy wrote:


Even the very concept of "Trinity" was "Formally" adopted/accepted into mainstream Christianity 325 years AFTER Jesus son of Mary left us.


There are few more areas like this where people ask if these are modern adoption or part of what Jesus taught us. Following this discussion, I think this is what our fellow member meant. Hope this was some help. I know there are other members who are far wiser than me in these matters. I am sure they can add more to this discussion.


May you have a blessed day.




BD your article says that


"The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[5] The [Council of Nicea] affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father."


So of course Trinity was not a new idea conveniently borrowed from pagan neighbours, but pre-existing debate of early Christian theologians (the Apostolic Fathers, generational disciples of the apostles), based on Scriptural evidence. (Of course, going back to your original argument, Jesus never said "Trinity.")


Blessings,


Bezant

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2010 - 3:26PM #15
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


On this statement I to an extent agree with such people. The evergreenery we use to decorate at Christmas time, and the yule log, is originally a pagan seasonal custom. The upcoming Feast of All Saints and the Feast of All Souls, amoungst the holiest days in the Christian calander, parallel pagan days of the dead--e.g., Halloween.


For most (but certainly not every) part Christians, however, such things are not contradictory with our faith.



>>>>>> Hi.


I knew some people who refused to celebrate Halloween on a religious ground. This person brought a "Huge" cross right were some people wanted to "Celebrate" Haloween.


But I know what you meant. Maybe you do not look at it from religious point of view. However I was sharing some observation and ideas heard from other people. My "Personal" opinions were NOT shared in the last post.


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


Muhammed also allowed pre-Islamic practices that didn't conflict with God's revelation, either. Djinn, for example, is a pre-Islamic. The concept of blood-writ is a pre-Islamic.


 The criteria by which Islam and Christianty (and within movements of both faiths) find "pagan" practices acceptable with the new faith differ, but neither rejects either outright.



>>>>>> Albeit I was not discussing "Muhammad" here. Since you brought it up, I'll explain. Muhammad never claimed to start a new religion. Actually huge part of Qur'an talks about people before Muhammad. Christians and Jews were addressed many times.


As per Islamic ideas Muhammad kept the practices that was approved by God and did not support practices God did not like [ Idol worshipping and adding partners to God's authority would be two examples]. The concept of jin/djin or creature of an "Unseen world" is not a pagan idea but a philosophy that existed since Adam started living in this world. This theory accepts the idea that other creatures lives among us and we cannot see them. Pesonally I do not of any custom Muhammad or Jesus approved that was entirely pagan creation.


I mean if I like to eat hot cereal in the morning like many pagans do that does not make it a "Religious" custom. Rather a social custom. I was not talking about social customs rather religious customs.


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


Well, there are some historians that doubt Jesus existed...another debate...



>>>>>> I think Jesus was there ( Among the Jews)and he will be back again. Two areas we can all agree on.

Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:



of the major recurring themes of the Gospel is that Jesus paradoxically challenges the immobile Law in the prescence of the Pharisees and Saduccees: shomer shabbat, hand-washing, kashrut, are all challenged.



>>>>> I am confused by your understanding of the Bible. Are you telling me "The Bible" AKA "Word of God" has contradictions??


FYI, I read the few more lines after the quoted verse, I did not see any contradictions in what Jesus said.


Was "hand washing" a law or tradition/"good practice"?


This is important. My understanding was Jesus was sent by God to add a better understanding of religion and God to to the Jews. Practicing Jews were dedicated to law but Jesus wanted to add another layer to that understanding. Every time God "Picks someone" he comes up with something new to add. As per my own understanding, Jesus was "Connected" to God and had more knowledge than what he taught. But he knew his people were not  ready for "All knowledge"yet. So he said,


"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, ......


[ The holy Bible John 16:12-15]


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


This is in accordance with the repeated commands to wash in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. It is still a continuing custom for Orthodox Jews to wash before and after meals on the Sabbath.



>>>>>> I enjoy reading the Bible but do not know it as well as some of you. Could you please supply me the chapter and verse numbers for "Hand washing" in the Bible? Because I could not find any....


As I said earlier "Customer/traditions" and "religious laws" are two different things. I mean we all wash hands before we eat but I think vast majority of us do it for hygine than religion. ;-)


What Jesus was teaching came from God. Therefore, it is only natural that, he would re-emphasize on "command of God" over "tradition".


 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?


 


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


Seventh Day Adventists also reject pork (and also shellfish, etc.) on the Scriptural grounds you present. I choose not eat pork and shellfish or their derivatives as a personal practice, and I do not expect it of other Christians.



>>>>>>>> I have no problem with anyone who eats pork. But I was simply shared an observation. God gave us 'Free will" to obey or disobey Him. He is the best judge of all times. So I let Him do the heavy lifting....

The point I was trying to make that, among Christians there are different explanations and different practices of the scripture. Did not want a debate here!!


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


Halal differs with kashrut on criteria for "clean" animals. Camels and in most Sunni schools shellfish are halal, but they are not kosher; in those (and other) respects Muslims do not fit the logic you present.



>>>>> As far as I know Shell fish are NOT prohibited for Muslims but not encouraged either. A catagory known as "Makruh" among Muslims. I do not expect Jews and Muslims agree on Everything. We would have had a better world if that happened. ;-)


Not trying to judge anyone here but simply going by scriptures.


Oct 25, 2010 -- 5:51PM, Bezant wrote:


 


As far as I'm aware--and I may be wrong--there's no Christian community existing from the early Church that currently worships exclusively on Saturday.



>>>>>> This is also my observation. Did Jesus worship on Sunday?


May you have a blessed day!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I intentionally did not get into "Trinity" discussion here. This is a Christian board and my goal is to simply share our views and learn something in the process. Don't want to offend anyone here.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2010 - 12:19PM #16
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

As per Bible, Chrsitianity was not a new religion. Jesus clearly mentioned about keeping "Laws" of OT.


There are some  communities in the midwestern USA still have women wearing long skirts and cover their heads like Orthodox Jews do till today. When we see old pictures of European immigrants coming to the US, we see most women covered their heads.


I was reading an article about a community in Jerusalem still have similar laws for women and tourists. Here is an excerpt....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rules of behavior


Ultra-orthodox Rabbis put up signs in Mea Shaarim, which announce that girls and women are expected to follow the following rules:


  1. Women and girls (young girls as well) should wear a skirt that goes beyond the knees, and clothing that covers the shoulders and a closed neckline, and sleeves that go at least until the elbows.


Yet, for visitors it is sufficient to wear clothes that cover the shoulders and upper legs until the knees. Tourists and Israeli women in mini skirts have been attacked by residents throwing stones at them.


Moreover, there are several rules of behavior:


  1. Tourists are asked not to travel in large groups.
  2. Residents should not be photographed and certainly not filmed without asking for permission, especially on the Sabbath. But taking photographs of random street scenes is fine in most neighborhoods, except in some parts of Meah Shearim.
  3. During the Jewish Sabbath, known as 'Shabbos' or 'Shabbat' (from sunset Friday until it is completely dark on Saturday night, i.e., 25 hours long), refrain from violating the Shabbat in these areas. That means: no mobile phones, no cigarettes, no (photo or video) cameras, and perhaps somewhat more respectable dress. These items should not only not be used, but they should also not be visibly carried around. If they must be taken along, carry them in a bag, and don't forget to turn off your mobile phone.
  4. Avoid wearing Christian symbols, such as crosses or religious shirts. Also, since many residents are anti-Zionist, some of them very strongly so, wearing pro-Israel shirts and the like may lead to uncomfortable looks.


 Buses


On several bus lines in Jerusalem, ultra-orthodox Rabbis attempted to introduce a strict gender-separation with women forced to sit in the back of the bus. The bus company Egged and the Israeli government support this step to exclude women from public space. This separation is enforced sometimes violently by ultra-orthodox men, but not legal according to Israeli law, as the Israeli High Court decided recently[1] and even opposed by some ultra-orthodox women[2]. On other lines, the custom is for ultra-orthodox men and women (except family members) not to sit next to each other.


On those buses on which women are forced to sit in the back and separated; women enter and exit through the back doors, and men through the front doors. These lines are: 10, 36, 40, 56, 49A. Next to the back door there is a device for women to punch holes in multiple-fare tickets. When a woman needs to buy a ticket, she walks forward after all men in front have sit down............................................................................................................................


..............to read the full article, please click here.


[ Source: wikitravel.org/en/Jerusalem/Chareidi ]


=====================================================


We all know about few Muslim majority countries with similar rules for women and they refer to religious books as the source of their insporation for such laws.


This make me think all these religions are related.


 


Also see


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3522391.stm


Italian seaside town planning miniskirt ban

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2010 - 6:58PM #17
Xapisma
Posts: 155

Nov 9, 2010 -- 12:19PM, BDboy wrote:


This make me think all these religions are related.




Well, exactly. All three are known collectively as the "Abrahamic Faiths" since we all trace our heritage back to the man from Ur.


And there are common threads which unite us, echos that resound within all three religions.

  • One God (even with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, we insist that God is One. It's complicated.)
  • Regular daily prayer, and set times for prayer.
  • Fasting. (Yom Kippur, Lent, Ramadan)
  • Sacred meals. (Seder, Eucharist, Ramadan)
  • Pilgrimage. (Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Mecca)
  • Alms giving.
  • Weekly gathered worship communities. (Synagogue, Church, Masjid)

I believe that by exploring our commonalities, we can learn much from one another.

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 12, 2010 - 11:27AM #18
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

Nov 10, 2010 -- 6:58PM, Xapisma wrote:


I believe that by exploring our commonalities, we can learn much from one another.




>>>>>> I often remind Muslims that, it was a Christian king{ Negus} from Abisinia [ Modern Etheopea] who gave shelter to early followers of Muhammad. They had to flee from Mecca to save their lives and to protect this new found faith. Later Meccan chief send an offer of lot of money if king Negus retuned those Meccan but the king was so impressed after learning about 'Special status" given to our spiritual mother Mary in the Qur'an, he refused the money and continued to give shelter until it was not necessary.


Similarly early Muslims protected and respected Christians as per instruction from prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 13, 2010 - 11:04AM #19
Xapisma
Posts: 155

Similarly, one of the most sacred sites in Christianity, the Monastery of St. Catherine at Mt. Sinai, contains within it's walls a small mosque. The site is sacred to all three faiths.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 10, 2010 - 1:58PM #20
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

Hi everyone.


I found an article that talks about moderation in religion ( Islam as the "Middle path"). I thought my "Traditional Christian" friends will find similarities there as well. Just click on the link below to read the whole article.


Islam is the Middle Path

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